Timing belt change - do the idlers as well?

[darkstar]

update: just rang LD:

- quoted total $1800 for cam belt replacement
- split was $1000 for the belt replacement kit, $800 labour
- asked if I could supply my own parts: 'yes, but we won't give you a warranty'
- what if they're genuine Alfa parts? - nope, no warranty
- what if I pay some extra for a warranty? - nope, no warranty
- should I replace water pump, auxiliary belts while they're at it?: 'We check those, and will replace if needed'. They did mention that if my pump has a plastic impellor, it would be replaced.

so I can source the kit for $700 less from the UK, is anyone seriously going to tell me I should just cop an extra $700? You've gotta be joking. I'm not worried about the warranty anyway, I've never, to my knowledge anyway, had a shop do a dodgey job, such that I'd want to take it back. And I gather the guys at LD are pros.

I've been quoted $600 labour by generics, but obviously I'll not be going to them for this.

wankski: I'm in Melbourne.

further question if I may: is there a way I can check if my water pump has a plastic impellor? If so, I'll just order one from the UK methinks...

[tony8028]

Sounds like your mechanic is throwing his toys out of the cot...

After a conversation like that, i'd be tempted to go elsewhere....not sure that his heart and soul will be in the job given that you have already copped some attitude.

Maybe you should ring around and up front say 'i have the kit, i just need it installed, can you do it?'. Then you are not questioning their parts mark-up so directly.

I find the guys at the Italian Job in Oakleigh pretty straight-up sort of blokes....i am sure there are others too.

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Mark up and pricing.  Comes up time and again on this forum.  I wonder, do you guys realise this is NOT just limited to the auto trades?  Nearly every single item that is retailed in Australia, retails for more than it does overseas - and that includes items that are MADE in Australia. 

The Engineers Black Book is printed in Australia, and retails here for a little over $40.  In the US (still printed in Australia, just with 'USA edition' on the front cover), it's about $20.

The Alfaholics polyurethane 'cone bushes' for the trunnion arm of a 105, are nothing more than Superpro bushes (still manufactured in Queensland AFAIK), with the Superpro label removed and an Alfaholics one attached.  I have a mate in the trade, so I asked him to get me a trade price on that same bush through Bursons.  His trade price was $19.65, while at todays exchange rate, even with VAT, Alfaholics work out to $17.35.

What's my point?  My point is, don't blame the guys at the end of the chain - lift your sights up a lot higher, and ask the manufacturers themselves why their wholesale prices seem to be more in Australia than retail prices overseas.

trippy: basically, you're saying that mechanics make a cut on parts, rather than charge it as labour, which would be the HONEST thing to do. It appears that they're trying to hide the fact that they're making a cut on parts, which in my view is a dodgey practise.

if they were going to be ethical about it, they should bill you for what the parts cost them, and anything extra should be counted as labour. Either that, or they should be  up-front about it and itemise their cut on the parts separately on the bill.

Darkstar, I don't even know why I'm bothering here, since you obviously have an extremely low view of the automotive trade, and believe everyone is out to get you, but here goes anyway.

Let's start with the fact that anything they sell, MUST have GST collected on it.  So, out of the gate you'll pay 10% more than they did, I'm sure you'd agree that is a fair observation.  So we'll assume they charge you what they pay, plus 10%.  I have to wonder, what then would be the benefit of them supplying parts at all?  After all, it takes time to order parts, deal with invoices and book keeping related matters, negotiate with suppliers/couriers, possibly even pay fees - time that could be much better off spent with their tools in an engine bay. 

I really don't understand your comment about "anything extra should be counted as labour."  The most likely situation I can work out, is that you are saying any profit made on the parts should be taken off the labour cost?  In which case, see above...

I'm not worried about the warranty anyway, I've never, to my knowledge anyway, had a shop do a dodgey job, such that I'd want to take it back. And I gather the guys at LD are pros.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps people aren't suggesting you check about a warranty for dodgy workmanship, but instead in case one of the parts (tensioner bearing, for example) you buy fails after 20,000km?  Saving a few hundred dollars on parts will suddenly seem very foolish if this occurs, and you have no warranty....  A quick check of EB spares suggests if you were lucky enough to only have 8 bent valves (say 4 intake, 4 exhaust), you'd be up for just over $400 simply for the valves and head gasket set - thats before postage, and the required bits to do the cambelt (again).  Not to mention the labour involved in removing and repairing a pair of v6 heads....

To my mind, it's a bit like driving around with no car insurance - what do you do if some unemployed and uninsured moron smashes into your car and writes it off?  You end up a lot more out of pocket than you would have been if you spent some cash on insurance...  It's not that likely to happen, but it's also certainly not impossible.  I guess the question is, do you feel lucky?

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Sounds like your mechanic is throwing his toys out of the cot...

After a conversation like that, i'd be tempted to go elsewhere....not sure that his heart and soul will be in the job given that you have already copped some attitude.

I'm not sure how you figure that? 

Let's assume they give a warranty on the LABOUR they do, and there is a failure in 20,000kms.  The car needs to be partly dismantled to ascertain cause of failure, and this is where the trouble begins.  Assume for example the tensioner bearing has failed. 

First, they must ring the customer, and tell them the bearing has failed.  Now, if you just take a look at some of the posts around this site, it's a fair bet that the response will be "No, that was a good quality part, you must have overtensioned the belt."  Now, this may well be true, although most likely not, who knows?  The mechanic will be convinced that the belt was correctly tensioned, the customer will be adamant that it must have been done wrong.  The most likely result here is that the customer will be angry and convinced he's being taken for a ride (after all, that's the hobby of all mechanics, isn't it?), and the mechanic will refuse to do the repairs under warranty - after all, why should he be out $5-6,000 due to a part he didn't supply?  The customer will most likely have the car towed away, and spend the rest of his life spouting angrily off about that workshop.

Personally, I can quite easily understand why any workshop would not want to expose themselves to that situation.  Conversely, if the workshop supplies the parts as well, it's very simple and clear cut.  They repair the car, and they chase the supplier of the parts for monetary reimbursement if the parts are the cause of failure.  No arguments with the customer, no potential legal battles, simply "This went wrong, it's all fixed, have a nice day."

Which, incidentally, probably has a lot to do with why local mechanics often don't buy their parts in from overseas...  After all, it's amazing how elusive someone in the same country can become when they're being chased with a $5,000 bill, imagine trying to mount that same chase internationally!

I'm sure the next reply will be - but what about the genuine parts, they're the same parts the dealer would use.  To which, I will note than in the last couple of years, SKF bearings put out a technical bulletin on how to recognise a genuine SKF bearing.  Why?  Because the market had been flooded (including in authorised SKF stockists) with Chinese manufactured knockoffs.  Identical box, identical part numbers - everything appeared to even more experienced observers to be the same.  Except the quality.

[wankski]

wankski: I'm in Melbourne.

further question if I may: is there a way I can check if my water pump has a plastic impellor? If so, I'll just order one from the UK methinks...

yeah, go LD...

no, you'd need to remove it to tell... i'm pretty sure the gtv always had a metal one, but why not... go ahead and replace and don't stress about it!

[wankski]

Let's assume they give a warranty on the LABOUR they do, and there is a failure in 20,000kms.  The car needs to be partly dismantled to ascertain cause of failure, and this is where the trouble begins.  Assume for example the tensioner bearing has failed. 

i get what you're saying, really i do, but its for the individual to decide... I mean many early v6s now are barely worth 10k if that... is it really reasonable to tell owners that they have to pay 2k+ to replace the belt every 3 yrs?

the natural conclusion for most is: not worth it, don't do it at all!

now if we can combine a genuine alfa kit + expert dealer labour and nearly cut the cost in half, i personally think that's more reasonable, and having the job done on the dot every 3 yrs, local warranty on gen parts or not, is far better than postponement due to cost.

but i guess most of all, the thing that i object to most, is the notion that we as enthusiast alfisti can't think for ourselves, rather than, "shut up, pay whatever they ask for, take it and like it"... nnaaah thanks. it's just not for me.

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Let's assume they give a warranty on the LABOUR they do, and there is a failure in 20,000kms.  The car needs to be partly dismantled to ascertain cause of failure, and this is where the trouble begins.  Assume for example the tensioner bearing has failed. 

i get what you're saying, really i do, but its for the individual to decide... I mean many early v6s now are barely worth 10k if that... is it really reasonable to tell owners that they have to pay 2k+ to replace the belt every 3 yrs?

Not so sure that you do get what I'm saying, actually.  My point with the post you've quoted, is that I don't think it is unreasonable for a workshop to refuse to give a warranty when they don't know the origin of the parts, especially when the cost of failure is as high as a cambelt breakage. Manufacturing defects DO occur, parts DO fail prematurely, and to suggest a workshop is just throwing a tantrum if they refuse to warrant a job where they have not supplied the parts (therefore having no recourse if such a failure should occur) seems a little naive...

But certainly, as you say, regardless of warranty or not, new parts fitted by the appropriate people are a lot better than no parts fitted at all.  It is indeed up to the individual just how much peace of mind they want - after all, I do all my mechanical work myself, ergo I have no warranty at all.  If something fails, I'll swear, fork over cash for the required parts, and then spend a few nights swearing and skinning knuckles.  Risk analysis would suggest the labour savings I make in this manner will most often pay for parts required in the event of a failure, so I'm fine with that.  If I had no mechanical ability at all, I would be certainly be trying to make sure the job ended up with a warranty, for the same reason I have comprehensive car insurance - I hope I don't need it, but I'll pay a bit extra in case I do.

[darkstar]

Jesus J&H, this seems to have got you worked up.

I simply meant that bills should accurately itemise what you're being charged for, but it doesn't really matter.

as has been said above, it's up to the individual to decide which way they want to go, and I'm not paying an extra $600 or $700, on what I think is bugger-all chance of there being a problem due to deficient quality parts. I intend to buy the parts from what is seemingly a reputable UK supplier, and have them fitted by an Alfa specialist. You seem to think that's a risky proposition, I DON'T.

think I'll order the water pump at the same time...

[tony8028]

Mark up and pricing.  Comes up time and again on this forum.  I wonder, do you guys realise this is NOT just limited to the auto trades?  Nearly every single item that is retailed in Australia, retails for more than it does overseas - and that includes items that are MADE in Australia. 

yes but times have changed....before the interwebs, only someone well connected within the trade could lay their hands on spare parts such as complete belt kits etc....now we press 'buy it now' and parcel arrives on our doorstep from anywhere in the world in around a week.

If mechanics need to put up their hourly rate to absorb this, fair enough, but its not unfair for a customer to suggest that he supplies the parts and pays the mechanic for fitting. This does happen in other trades.

[Jekyll and Hyde]

yes but times have changed....before the interwebs, only someone well connected within the trade could lay their hands on spare parts such as complete belt kits etc....now we press 'buy it now' and parcel arrives on our doorstep from anywhere in the world in around a week.

If mechanics need to put up their hourly rate to absorb this, fair enough, but its not unfair for a customer to suggest that he supplies the parts and pays the mechanic for fitting. This does happen in other trades.

Yes, everything can be bought online easily and cheaply, and I have no problem with that, I do it a lot myself.  I don't feel, however, feel the need to tell everyone I can that my local bolt shop is a ripoff artist when I see the Engineers Black Book for sale at twice the price it is overseas - it's not their fault, they don't need to be abused as well as lose the sale.

I never said it was unfair for a customer to supply the parts.  I do however feel that it is completely unfair to suggest a mechanic is throwing a tantrum when he refuses to supply a warranty on a job where he doesn't know the origin of the parts.

Jesus J&H, this seems to have got you worked up.

I simply meant that bills should accurately itemise what you're being charged for, but it doesn't really matter.

as has been said above, it's up to the individual to decide which way they want to go, and I'm not paying an extra $600 or $700, on what I think is bugger-all chance of there being a problem due to deficient quality parts. I intend to buy the parts from what is seemingly a reputable UK supplier, and have them fitted by an Alfa specialist. You seem to think that's a risky proposition, I DON'T.

think I'll order the water pump at the same time...

I'm not sure what you find inaccurate about your bills exactly...  I'm sure when you buy a new tv or a couch, you don't expect to see mentioned on the invoice the stores cost price, and how much profit they are making, why should this be any different?

As far as 'risk' goes, I was more pointing out that a warranty doesn't just cover a labour related stuff up, which you seemed to be implying.

And as far as saving $6-700 over your LD quote, perhaps you should reread the posts in this thread by Trippytipo...  Assuming I'm comprehending his (her?) posts correctly.

[tony8028]

I never said it was unfair for a customer to supply the parts.  I do however feel that it is completely unfair to suggest a mechanic is throwing a tantrum when he refuses to supply a warranty on a job where he doesn't know the origin of the parts.

I like to think that we are paying a mechanic for their expertise and experience working on these specialized cars. AND Marking up the spare parts by 10-20% is fine, just like the 'workshop incidentals' like item on the bill. However, whacking a 100% mark up on the parts that enable them to do the very job that you are paying them to do a little rich IN MY OPINION ONLY (thats the important part!!)

[Jekyll and Hyde]

whacking a 100% mark up on the parts...

What are you basing that figure on, exactly?

[tony8028]

whacking a 100% mark up on the parts...

What are you basing that figure on, exactly?

$280 for a complete belt kit when purchased privately.

[ANG156]

From the UK, a contact i know can source 2.5 and 3.2v6 cambelt/auxilliary kits for 260pounds including cam and balancer belt, fixed/adjustable tensioners, all auxilliary belts and tensionsers (all belts are dayco and all tensioners are OE). Without the auxilliary belts and tensioners its 150pounds. Water pump (metal impeller is 60pounds aftermarket though).

I think in today's market with things being so competitive, and the ease to source parts from overseas is really putting strain on the locals. But if the consumer can save hundreds or even $50 its better off in your pocket than someone elses. That $50 can buy you half the oil required for the oil change so effectively your getting more for your dollar.

[tony8028]

I think in today's market with things being so competitive, and the ease to source parts from overseas is really putting strain on the locals. But if the consumer can save hundreds or even $50 its better off in your pocket than someone elses. That $50 can buy you half the oil required for the oil change so effectively your getting more for your dollar.

Sounds fair to me.