Performance chip for '92 Alfa 33 16V

[gtv6sv]

Hi guys!
just purchased a '92 33 16V (sunroof model) and i want to tweak it s bit.
What Performance chip would be best for it?
I've heard people put Squadra Chips and Autodelta Chips but want to know if there are any better ones and where to get these chips from?
Kind regards, Stefan 

[colcol]

I have seen these items on ebay, no idea what they are like, some of them fool the motor computer into telling it is still cold and richening up the mixture for MORE POWER, of course Alfa Romeo know nothing about engines, durability, fuel use, emision standards, driveability or anything like that, whenever they do something like that, there is a reason, fiddle with it and it will get worse in another area, Colin.

[gtv6sv]

I know exactly what you mean col, I dont trust those chips from ebay for certain reasons including that. i would rather get a chip that is from a specialist or if anyone has any recommendations please share it with me. I read in a recent edition of C&S that a guy used the Autodelta chip and bumped it up to 155bhp, which i think is quite impressive and thinks its a good chip for the car? any opinions on it? also heard of Megasquirt chips are supposed to be good but would like to hear from experience
regards stefan.

[aussiehcviva]

Stefan,

Here's the website for the Squadra chip for the 33 16v (http://www.squadra-tuning.nl/autos/categorie/11/auto/4.html). I bought one a few years back and there was no problem at all with purchase and shipping etc. I never ended up installing it yet as I went full aftermarket system and had the car dyno tuned via that, but i do intend on installing it on another build. From memory it was about $250-$300 but that was when the Australian dollar was pretty crap.
Before buying it I spent a fair bit of time researching it and could not find anyon who had had a bad experience with this chip.

Good luck

[gtv6sv]

no worries thanks heaps for the info:) will try get my hands on it shortly

[tony8028]

would love to see some pics of the car!

I love this model was was never game to buy one (i believe they can get expensive when they break!).

Wouldnt be many good ones left I'd imagine...

[Martinsifredi]

Hi guys,

hi GTV6 sv  its martin Sifredi register captain   , ( the guy with 155HP)  ,, ok now , as Stephan wrote the Squadra chip is good , and probably the ONLY reliable chip left on the market for the 33 16V .  My chip is a Autodelta chip (from the UK Autodelta)  unfortunately they stopped making this chip many years ago .  
Apart from this the most reliable and tuning friendly alternative will be the UNICHIP Q piggy back ECU , its proven all over the world as one of the best ECU's especially for the money , BUT this ecu will only give you as much or maybe 10-15% more than the Sqadra chip , the only difference is with the UNICHIP you will be able to re-tune if you do future mods like cams , head work etc.

my opinion if you are on a budget and want a reliable package go with the Sqadra chip.

[Duk]

 Apart from this the most reliable and tuning friendly alternative will be the UNICHIP Q piggy back ECU , its proven all over the world as one of the best ECU's especially for the money , BUT this ecu will only give you as much or maybe 10-15% more than the Sqadra chip , the only difference is with the UNICHIP you will be able to re-tune if you do future mods like cams , head work etc.

Bollocks!

There are other interceptor tuning devices that are just capable if not more so than the Unichip. There is probably better support for the other brands (Haltech interceptor and the ChipTorque Xede) here in Australia. And Unichip don't let you access the device unless you are a certified tuner!

Secondly, no 'chip', interceptor or after market computer gives the any engine any more power. The engines true power potential can be limited by a 'chip', interceptor or after market computer but it can never allow the engine to make more power than it can. Neither approach will give more outright power than the other assuming that the airflow meter is not a limiting factor in the engine making its true power potential.

Thirdly, most interceptor tuners SUCK(!) when you start to get serious!
The way the majority of them (and certainly the Unichip) work is to 'bend' the primary load sensor's signal to effect the desired air fuel ratio. If you have an engine which is over fuel (which most engines are at full throttle), then they modify the primary load sensor's signal to show a lower load to the computer to try and achieve the desired air fuel ratio.
The trouble is, the factory computer will also then access different, more advanced, points in the ignition map. If the additional ignition advance is what the engine magically wanted, great! If it's not what the engine wanted, then the ignition timing will need to be changed via the inteceptor's ignition map tuning.
The trouble here is that you are changing the ignition timing on 2 fronts, 1 with fuel tuning changes and the other with ignition timing changes themselves. Potentially you can end up with a decent result, but it is more work than it should be.
If you need bigger injectors for your desired power aspirations, the problem gets even worse. As the 'sensor bender' tries to send a signal to the computer which it is not 'tuned' to receive (factory computers are 'tuned' to look at certain parts of the main load sensor's voltage signal. If a 'sensor bender' is sending a lower signal than what is programmed into the computer, it won't act properly and will probably log a fault because of it. If the factory's low load values are already close to 0 volts, then there is VERY little 'tunability' available with a 'sensor bender'. The bigger injectors will probably also require an injector open time which is shorter than the shortest open time programmed into the computer/'chip'. The end result can be an engine which runs excessively rich at idle and low loads and with ignition timing that has been bashed all over the place while trying to get decent air fuel ratios.

[Sportscar Nut]

Interesting discussion Gents but tend to agree with DUK and Colin. Have spent some time & cash playing and dyno'ing chips on cars and most just 're-compensate' the engine tuning. IMO, unless you have a modern car (ie throttle positioning on modern cars for warranty purposes) or turbo (ie extra boost but with extra's to tolerate), most chips simply compromise the tune in other areas and/ or damage the engine.

Martin, 155 bhp from a 16V is impressive - was this bench dyno'ed?

Thanks
Paul

[Duk]

Interesting discussion Gents but tend to agree with DUK and Colin. Have spent some time & cash playing and dyno'ing chips on cars and most just 're-compensate' the engine tuning. IMO, unless you have a modern car (ie throttle positioning on modern cars for warranty purposes) or turbo (ie extra boost but with extra's to tolerate), most chips simply compromise the tune in other areas and/ or damage the engine.

Martin, 155 bhp from a 16V is impressive - was this bench dyno'ed?

Thanks
Paul

A 'chip' that compromises the the tune in other areas and/or damages the engine is only ever done by someone who doesn't know anywhere near enough about the internal layout inside the 'chip'.
There are parts inside the huge mess of code that can effect changes in the fueling behavior but won't actually be the fuel map. The airflow meter's voltage map is 1 of them, then there is how the computer actually uses the AFM's voltage map (unfortunately factory cars very rarely look at a main load sensor vs engine speed map like programmable systems do). As is the coolant temperature vs fueling map.
Properly tuned 'chips (I hate the word 'chips' for an EPROM or EEPROM)' will only change the areas that need to be changed to get the best from the engine.
It is never a simple matter of just broadly adding or subtracting fuel or ignition to get the desired results. NEVER!
There is also no engine produced by a car manufacturer than needs more fuel to be added in standard form! Any car with a catalytic converter will be significantly over fueled at high loads to help keep the cat cooler at sustained high loads.

Proper tuning is about knowing where on the actual fuel and/or ignition map the computer is accessing at a given time (any given combination of engine speed and load) and then either adding or subtracting and seeing if the torque output increases or decreases with the changes. If it increases, keep making changes in that direction until it either starts to loose torque or it starts to knock and then go back the other way to help add some safety. Then move to the next fuel and ignition point and start again.
At any given combination of engine speed and engine load, the engine can develop only so much torque. The correct amount of fuel and the correct amount of ignition timing will achieve this. The wrong amount of fuel (too rich or too lean) or the wrong amount of ignition advance (too advanced or not advanced enough) will compromise this torque output at that particular engine speed and engine load point.
Slightly wrong fuel (even within 1 full AFR point) tuning will have less of an effect than slightly wrong ignition tuning, especially at part throttle.
It is possible for an engine to have overly advanced ignition timing without suffering from detonation/knock. Especially at part throttle, where the engine would gain torque (at that given rev/load point) if the ignition timing was retarded. It's probably not the case with the factory tune, but ignition tuning is not just about advancing the ignition timing to the point of detonation/knock and then backing it off a couple of degrees.
The only real way to get accurate feedback about what the engine needs is from a dyno. People who say they can provide some magical 'chip' or interceptor tune and get the best out of your car without 1, are either the most amazing tuners in the world or complete lyers!
Given that car manufacturers and Formula One engine builders extensively use dyno's for tuning feedback, they are just lyers.

A properly tuned engine, whether it be run by a retuned factory computer, an interceptor equipped factory computer or an aftermarket programmable computer will achieve the best torque output it can possible produce, at any given rev and load point without suffering from detonation or running excessively lean. Running slightly lean may be slightly better for peak power and may not cause detonation in the short term but sustained use can/will cause the combustion chambers to get excessively hot and then cause detonation. This will give the best outright performance and allow the engine to be as responsive as possible.
Getting it right is technically straight forward. Getting it absolutely right over the all of the combinations of engine (not that you should be flogging your engine until it reaches correct operating temperature  ) and inlet air temperature combinations is ny on impossible for the average tuner (car manufacturers take their test cars to the hottest and coldest parts of the driving world and spend days/weeks/months tuning their temperature compensation maps to get it right).

I have seen these items on ebay, no idea what they are like, some of them fool the motor computer into telling it is still cold and richening up the mixture for MORE POWER, of course Alfa Romeo know nothing about engines, durability, fuel use, emision standards, driveability or anything like that, whenever they do something like that, there is a reason, fiddle with it and it will get worse in another area, Colin.

Rather than just assuming about Alfa Romeo's ability to tune an engine management system, look at the real world and real examples of Alfa Romeo's production.
Alfa Romeo churned out some pretty rubbish quality control inside the ports of the 12 valve V6's. I'd hazard a guess that the boxer engines were of similar production quality. Call this performance potential, if you will.
Similarly, I would expect potential to be in the computer mapping.
There is always tolerances 'built' into the maps of factory engine management systems. Most people will say that they are for the slight production variations of engines, and to a degree I would agree. But I believe that the variations are more for the variations in how people first run their brand new car in. Lots of people will baby their brand new car and the rings won't bed in as well as they can and the engine won't be as powerful as it could be. Others (probably more so with Italians  ) will get stuck into it straight away and get those rings bedded into the bores correctly. These engines will better utilize the factory tuning than the babied engine.

"Don't let it run lean, detonate or over rev it and it will last a long time"

[Alfapride]

i own the same model, has been my daily driver for 6 years and love it. Before you invest $$ in a chip which I personally think is snake oil change your distributor rotor and distributor cap and give it a fresh set of plugs and leads...made a massive performance improvement for me when I first purchased my car.

[festy]

I've only briefly looked at the 33's maps (I've been tackling the twinspark EMS first) but can confirm that even with an unmodified engine there is room for improvement in the standard ECU tune without losing drivabillity.
The ECU tune was developed to cover all market scenarios, so there's compromises around emissions and fuel quality variations among other things.
If one was happy to only use premium fuel, the ECU could be tuned to make use of that and you'd notice the difference - but you'd also notice if you filled up with E10 by mistake
And the emissions "dips" in the maps could very quickly be ironed out, which from what I've seen would be a reasonable improvement in itself.
 
The EFI system is about the only aspect of an engine that you can vastly improve for one condition, without negatively impacting other operating conditions (if done correctly) - i.e. you can increase performance under heavy acceleration without losing "around town" behaviour - because the ECU treats these situations completely independent of each other. You can't to that with a set of hot cams

Some time in the near future I'm expecting to have a realtime tuning system working for the 33, so you can not only datalog and  see the ECU maps and settings, but change them on the fly too - the same as you can do with a decent aftermarket EMS.
I'm in the middle of testing this system on the twinspark ECUs, and to use it on 33s is just some extra software.

[John Hanslow]

....... change your distributor rotor and distributor cap and give it a fresh set of plugs and leads...made a massive performance improvement for me when I first purchased my car.

I have heard from very reliable contact that a comon service item overlooked is the tappet clearances.  These need adjusting and the car performs much better. 

Due to the age of the 900 series cars, this is overlooked with home servicing due to lack of knowledge or equipment.

[Paul Gulliver]

Some time in the near future I'm expecting to have a realtime tuning system working for the 33, so you can not only datalog and  see the ECU maps and settings, but change them on the fly too - the same as you can do with a decent aftermarket EMS.
I'm in the middle of testing this system on the twinspark ECUs, and to use it on 33s is just some extra software.

This is a very modest introduction and summary of Festy's work. If you want to see how good it is and how close it is to reality put aside a couple of hours and read all of this thread.

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/engine-management/190352-what-stock-75-ts-motronic-can-cannot-do.html

Just hope the TS one is completed first


Gully

[Frank Musco]

This is a very modest introduction and summary of Festy's work. If you want to see how good it is and how close it is to reality put aside a couple of hours and read all of this thread.

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/engine-management/190352-what-stock-75-ts-motronic-can-cannot-do.html

Festy,
You are a modern day pioneer! Truly inspirational for those of us who love to work on our Alfas. Thanks for sharing your excellent work. Due to your engineering efforts and results, I'm going to have to eventually give it a go. I have spoken to others regarding re-tuning the 33 ecu, and have tried myself, but with no result. I have managed to re-map the Haltech F3 fuel only ecu which was fitted to the Lada Niva 4x4 1600 model, which I fitted to a modified  X-1/9 with great results, although that's as easy as re-tuning any aftermarket ecu. So change the chip, buy a cable, get the program, fit an oxy sensor and away I went, too easy. What you have accomplished is true engineering. Like you say, you can't do what you have with a set of hot cams.

John
Yes, the early 33's can have their tune improved by adjusting the MECHANICAL SOLID LIFTERS, every thou counts, although the 92 33 16V has NON ADJUSTABLE HYDRAULIC LIFTERS. I've noticed that the original cams tend to wear an occasional lobe or two, both 1700 8V and 16V. I've also found that the lifters are VERY durable. So low compression in a cylinder coupled with some tapping can be a symptom of a worn cam lobe, causing a lack of performance.

Duk, Colin and Alfapride
Totally agree with your sound advise and information.

I am a big fan of Alfa Romeo engineering. I recently sprinted 'my daughters' 92 33 16V, and it was remarkably fast, completely standard with a set of R's fitted (1:14 winton short), so fast I do not see the need to mess with the ecu, didn't even change the plugs, leads, (they were in good condition) just fuel filter and cam belts. If I slightly modified suspension and fitted some race pads I could cut 2 seconds off that time!! Basically if you don't modify the engine, don't modify the computer. The engine is a work of art, and like others have said, the engine tune 'may be' improved in one area, but compromised in other areas.
The 16V engines tends to appear to be a bit slow down in the rev range compared to the 8V engine, so just rev it harder in first, and don't hit the rev limiter.
Eventually I will fit one to a sprint, modify the engine and ecu. Should be pretty quick.

Thanks Gully for the link. Much appreciated.