What Defines A Car Brand???

[Duk]

There are a couple of threads going on over at AlfaBB regarding both the Alfa Romeo 8C http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfa-romeo-8c-competizione-spider/179819-8c-worst-car-ever-driven-stig.html and and Alfa test mule http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/anything-about-alfa-romeos-alfabb-com/194283-alfa-road-mule.html.
Now I'm in there stiring the pot  by voicing my belief that neither car is an Alfa Romeo and I say that because the major components of engine and chassis aren't Alfa Romeo.
The other point that I made was that no one in Alfa Romeo ownership land is changing the name of their car because they made a few or a whole heap of changes to it.
I actually goes as far to say that I believe that Alfa Romeo is a dead entity that is basically on life support from FIAT. To be used more as a marketing ploy than an actual creator of there own cars.

So what do other people believe defines a car marque?

The test mule is based on some adjusted front wheel drive Chrysler chassis and is using the GM V6. If Alfa Romeo badges started to appear on rebodied Commodores (now that FIAT are in bed with GM), would you still call it an Alfa Romeo?

[colcol]

Hey DUK, i thought that Fiat were no longer part of GM, [yay], GM purchased 15% of Fiat, about 10 years ago, to 'share their diesel technology', and to supply them with motors, but GM, got out of it to try and unsuccesfully avoid going broke, then Fiat brought a controlling interest in the broke Chrysler mob to supply them with cheap, 'made in America' engines, and for Fiat to sell rebadged Fiats as Chryslers in America, surely Fiat could build enough motors in Italy to supply Alfa Romeo and Lancia, and not have the indignity of Alfa Romeo having Mopar motors, Colin.

[Duk]

Col,
I'm the 1st person to admit I'm not up to date with car manufacture politics (sh!t, I don't buy car magazines anymore), but what about the use of GM based engines in Alfa Romeo?

[Darryl]

but what about the use of GM based engines in Alfa Romeo?

That was when they were in bed with GM... But please try to keep up  Fiat now own Chrysler... Hence the test mule in that alfabb thread is a Chrysler under the skin. You will be excited to know that Ateco will soon be selling only the more upmarket Fiats (the ones with horses or tridents on them) - and you will be able to go down to your friendly Jeep dealer and really startle people by coming back saying "I went to buy a Jeep - but I bought an Alfa SUV instead". Or maybe you will be trying to pick between a (Dodge) Dart and a (Fiat) Viaggio....

BTW the 8C is an Alfa, and you could argue it was good of Fiat to bring the company that upstart driver, Ferrari, back in house and use the engine... Entire Chrysler chassis etc are another thing entirely from putting together a limited production special from bits you have available....

[Duk]

That was when they were in bed with GM... But please try to keep up  Fiat now own Chrysler... Hence the test mule in that alfabb thread is a Chrysler under the skin. You will be excited to know that Ateco will soon be selling only the more upmarket Fiats (the ones with horses or tridents on them) - and you will be able to go down to your friendly Jeep dealer and really startle people by coming back saying "I went to buy a Jeep - but I bought an Alfa SUV instead". Or maybe you will be trying to pick between a (Dodge) Dart and a (Fiat) Viaggio....

Sorry I haven't kept up with the behind the scenes politics of FIAT's wheelings and dealings.

So you consider a Chrysler designed chassis and a GM engine an Alfa Romeo, do you?

BTW the 8C is an Alfa, and you could argue it was good of Fiat to bring the company that upstart driver, Ferrari, back in house and use the engine... Entire Chrysler chassis etc are another thing entirely from putting together a limited production special from bits you have available....

Please show me the Alfa Romeo involvement of the origins of the 8C.
Did they design and build the chassis? It existed as a Maserati chassis before the 8C
Did they design and build the engine? It existed as a Maserati engine before the 8C.
So maybe they changed some suspension stuff? Well then, Whiteline Automotive here in Australia get to rename a whole bunch of cars....... 

As per the thread question: What Defines a Car Brand???

[colcol]

You don't really want to go back to the bad old days of rust, crook electrics and unreliability, but somehow Fiat have got to put more Italian character in their cars, sure they can't make everything, but the motor, [most important part of car], make it a Fiat/Lancia/Alfa, not GM/MOPAR, let them do things like whatever they are good at, but no mater what Fiat does, people like me will whinge, Colin.

[1750GT]

This thread has been an enjoyable read. I have some ideas about what defines a brand, however I would like to clear up the GM/Chrysler thing first. My understaning is:

GM entered into arrangements to take over the ailing Fiat (including Ferrari!) in the early 2000's. GM was going to take over Fiat over a period of time. With Fiat going down the tubes and GM in the same sitaution in the US, in 2005 GM actually paid Fiat compensation in order not to take them over and Fiat was spared the embarassment of being owned by the Yanks, good thing that. There are plenty of articles, google will reveal all the detail.

During this alliance (Fiat/GM), Alfa Romeo was looking to GM to replace its six cylinder motor, why? my understanding is that Fiat wouldn't give them the budget to design a new engine that would meet Euro compliance and Alfa had no choice. This came off and Alfa has been using the GM small block six made in our own back yard by Holden Australia for a number of years now. Engines are shipped to Alfa, Alfa adds its design changes to the head and engine mgt and hey presto the new Alfa six was born (and used - brerra, 159 etc.).

GM was also developing a new compact rear drive platform for use in its prestige brands such as Cadallac and my understanding is that Alfa was looking  to take on the platform as its answer to re-intrduction of a rear drive platform for its premium vehicles. This all fell through with the demise of the relationship between Fiat/GM and the global financial crisis.

In 2009, Chrysler like all American makers was basically bankrupt after the Global financial Crisis and was bailed out by the American government. The American government wanted to basically ensure that Chrysler could survive before handing over the cash and the Fiat/Chrysler alliance was born with Fiat having the right to buy a stake in Chrysler (initally 20%) over time.

Where will the alliance go? and what effect will it have on Alfa Romeo? Fiat of course will use it to get back into the American market albiet with Chrysler badged Fiats, so it'll be good for business and over time will attempt to re-establish the Fiat, Alfa, Lancia etc. brands in America.

All Alfa romeo "vanilla" cars such as the mito/gulietta etc. are cars with Alfa body design shoe-horned with Fiat drive-trains and e-diffs (to help control the less than great chasis). This is the way of the world. But whats changed? Alfa's have been Fiat parts bins cars for how long now?

The problem for Alfa Romeo in my mind is that if it wants to continue to try and compete in the premium market (BMW/Audi/mercedes etc.) it needs premium platforms and six cylinder engines which fiat just doesn't do and hasn't done for years.

Even when Fiat was doing preium platforms and six cylinder motors it was getting them from ferrari (Fiat dino etc.) and Ferrari doesn't do six cylinder engines any more. In any event even if Ferrari did do six cylinder platfroms they would be out of Alfa's league for use in $60 - $100K Alfa's. So the GM solution with an Alfa tweak was actually a good solution, Alfa would get a premium rear drive platform and we could start seeing some premium rear drive Alfa's again, but alas this is now off the table.

Whilst I get the - is it really an Alfa if its using a yank (Chrysler) six and rear drive platform - argument, it may be the only way that Alfa will get the rear drive platform it needs for its 'premium" end vehicles (159/brerra replacement), although theres been no suggestion of Alfa getting chrysler sourced stuff yet that I know of?

The problem with the Fiat group is that it doesn't do six cylinder engines and it doesn't do premium rear drive platforms, ferrari excepted and the ferrari platforms are out of Alfa's legue (except for veihicles like the 8C thru masseratti) and these platforms are just too expensive for the Alfa $60 to $100K vehicles.

But is Alfa in any different position to a number of other leading manufacturers. This is happening in all manufacturing groups. The french (renault) are tied in with the japs (Nissan), all of the English are now owned by the Chinese or Indians (Aston Martin, Rover, MG etc.), the balance (Rolls Royce and Bently) are owned by the Germans (BMW and VW) and use BMW and VW derived drive trains etc. the difference is that these groups have advanced drive trains and strong brand identity and therfore they "maintain" their brand and their engineering input into their vehicles and will for some time.

However all is not lost the Alfa 8C, albiet that its got Masserati under pinnings, I think its a testoment to Alfa's design integrity that its been able to put together a brilliant car like the 8C. And look at the 4C, whilst it uses Fiat group drivetrain, Alfa has put some serious grunt into this car, a car that Fiat could never hope to produce under its own brand. And look at Lancia (also part of the Fiat group), Lancia's are just re-badged Fiat shit boxes with Lancia having very little independance to do anything approaching individual Lancia vehicles (a true travesty given some of the brilliant past that was Lancia).

There are really only very few brands in the world today that are truly independant brands producing their own individual vehicles in their entirety (BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari, Porshe) and very few aren't owned by other manufacturers or don't product share. So the world has changed and product sharing, product badging is rife in the quest to compete and in Alfa Romeos patch - mostly the $30K to $50K and $60-$100K price ranges (except for 8C/4C limited production cars), competition is such that they will ineviatably not be in a position to produce all of their own 'exclusive" drive trains or engines as they don't have the sales to make the investment work.

What makes a brand? in a traditional sense a manufacturer that is independant, makes its own product, its own drivetrains etc.

In todays world of product sharing? its a matter of degree. Whilst Alfa may be using largely Fiat platforms it can be argued that they aren't a "brand" in the traditional sense they are just a vehicle re-packager?

However I would disagree, just for the moment anyway, its not as if they simply have Fiat cars delivered and whack on an Alfa badge. Alfa still maintain their own sense of style and design far apart from what Fiat is doing. They still maintain significant engineering packaging independance (albiet that they are using Fiat parts and drivetain packages) all wrapped up in that lovely individual Alfa body (Mito and gulietta!). The 8C and 4C are also a tour de force for Alfa and one can only hope that more of this type of product continues to come out of the Alfa stable. In fact un-like Lancia (now re-badged fiats) I think Alfa has maintained a level of independance that we should celebrate, albiet that there have been some hits and misses. And yes Alfa is currently experiencing some issues with sales and some of its product is getting a bit long in the tooth, but with Mito/guilietta 4C they are at least still punching.

It doesn't matter that Alfa may use various platforms either from Fiat or Chrysler or anyone else, whats important is that Alfa, unlike some other manufacturers who are simply re-badging someone elses products are still maintaining their design independance and have the brand cred to continue to produce cars like the 8C and 4C and bring them to market. In todays market, in the  patch that Alfa's in, I don't think where they get their under-pinnings or engines from is the issue, what matters is that they continue to have their own engineering credability and independance to make those platforms into unique cars - Alfa Romeo's - and whilst they are not as independant as we'd all like, if they continue to move forward with cars like 8C and 4C and at the lower end mito and guilietta, then I think the Alfa brand is still alive. When they are reduced to re-badging Fiat shit boxes like Lancia then I think they are in trouble and have lost their Brand.

[Duk]

You don't really want to go back to the bad old days of rust, crook electrics and unreliability, but somehow Fiat have got to put more Italian character in their cars, sure they can't make everything, but the motor, [most important part of car], make it a Fiat/Lancia/Alfa, not GM/MOPAR, let them do things like whatever they are good at, but no mater what Fiat does, people like me will whinge, Colin.

Don't you think that they could do the basics of producing a well made, durable body and electrics? That stuff's not rocket science.

1750GT: That is a huge write up. Much appreciated.

1 thing tho. As awesome as the concept of the 4C is, isn't it really a KTM Longbow chassis underneath?

It seems as if there is another renowned styling house in Italy.
Pininfarina
Bertone
Alfa Romeo............... 

[Darryl]

That was when they were in bed with GM... But please try to keep up   Fiat now own Chrysler... Hence the test mule in that alfabb thread is a Chrysler under the skin. You will be excited to know that Ateco will soon be selling only the more upmarket Fiats (the ones with horses or tridents on them) - and you will be able to go down to your friendly Jeep dealer and really startle people by coming back saying "I went to buy a Jeep - but I bought an Alfa SUV instead". Or maybe you will be trying to pick between a (Dodge) Dart and a (Fiat) Viaggio....

Sorry I haven't kept up with the behind the scenes politics of FIAT's wheelings and dealings.

Sorry you are sorry - I haven't tried to keep up either - its all rather depressing, despite emoticon - it has just made enough noise in media I unfortunately didn't miss it...

So you consider a Chrysler designed chassis and a GM engine an Alfa Romeo, do you?

Um no. I couldn't find an emoticon for sarcasm and bitterness to go with the comments about jeep/chrysler - just pretend I'd put css tags <class="sarcastic"> around the whole thing. With sarcasm removed:

A chrysler with some alfa panels "stretched" over it is not an alfa (or even a fiat)

I don't understand the marketing brains that seem to think "alfa badge = premuim = more money per unit", "suv = what lots of people buy", therefore combine the 2 to get "Alfa SUV = something that lots of people buy and pay more for..." but that is what I've read/seen proposed. I think the whole idea is abhorrent. Maybe that market does exist, is huge,  and thats enough to make the powers that be at Fiat prostitute the Alfa badge.... Neither you nor I, nor I suspect anyone reading this thread, is in that market, if it exists, which I really hope it doesn't but am expecting to be disappointed...

And given that you missed the media around Fiat/Chrysler - maybe that means you have been lucky enough to miss those "I bought a Jeep" adverts. I was desperately trying to find some humor in them and the thought of someone walking into a dealership that sells "Jeeps" and "Alfas" and ends up walking out with an "Alfa" SUV (does this also mean they could buy a "Jeep" coupe?)... Bah...

[Darryl]

BTW the 8C is an Alfa, and you could argue it was good of Fiat to bring the company that upstart driver, Ferrari, back in house and use the engine... Entire Chrysler chassis etc are another thing entirely from putting together a limited production special from bits you have available....

Please show me the Alfa Romeo involvement of the origins of the 8C.
Did they design and build the chassis? It existed as a Maserati chassis before the 8C
Did they design and build the engine? It existed as a Maserati engine before the 8C.
So maybe they changed some suspension stuff? Well then, Whiteline Automotive here in Australia get to rename a whole bunch of cars....... 

As per the thread question: What Defines a Car Brand???

The Alfa romeo involvement in the 8C? Um - they decided to make a car, went looking to the parent company parts bin and found some bits to use as a basis and modified them to suit. The "Maserati" engine is the Fiat group's high performance V8 design and was developed to power Ferraris first, Masers second, Alfas third - why not? What how would a modern "Alfa" V8 be different? I realise the Maserati and Ferrari variants are different and the Alfa gets the Maserati version - what would you change if you were designing an Alfa V8 to go in a car of the 8Cs configuration and intent (ie a GT more than an all out supercar)?

As to the chassis - they picked a basis and modified it *a lot*. Have a look at some of the detail in alfabb thread - there are huge chassis changes involved - if anything its the suspension components that they did re-use.

Its a limited production car - would it have been better in some way if they had gratuitously re-engineered the car from scratch?

We are comparing very similar cars "in spirit" here - across the Alfa/Ferrari/Maserati portion of the Fiat group. But - I can take one look at a debadged 8C and tell its an Alfa. Its very hard to tell what should distinguish a modern top of the line GT from Alfa vs one from Ferrari beyond the styling, although Fiat marketing have - mostly- stuck to the Ferrari should be all out supercar not a GT and the Maserati badge is the GT car - letting Alfa in is a bit of a one of special reviving the Alfa of old.

Chrysler as a group is too broad a brand - but overall it tends to stand for cheap (in its home market at least) and agricultural at best, badly built, badly styled crap at worst.

It has some reasonably strong brands within it though. Dodge "Mopar" raw grunt (agricultural as it may be) is still "cool" - shame about the big barges built around it (Viper is an exception to that). Jeep did have some vestiges of simple/tough credibility left last time I looked but its getting pretty dodgy with the scale model made out of margarine container plastic 2wd "jeeps for mums" stuff...

None of that branding crosses to anything the alfa badge stands for... And that is the problem with sharing anything beyond basic parts.

FWIW - I think anyone having a problem with the intra-italy sharing of tech and the ":where did that design come from" stuff needs to look at a bit of history...

A long time ago (1910) a company called ALFA was created... They made cars, in Italy.

Just before some pesky little war in 1914 they built their first DOHC racing engine/ grand prix car but it wasn't that fast and in any case didn't get to race before the war.

During the war some bloke by the name of Romeo bought the company and at the end of the war the leftover stock of prewar ALFAs were assembled and sold with Alfa Romeo Milano badges....

The racecars were dragged out too but wasn't terribly successful in 1919 (unlike the 1914 GP FIAT it raced against).

In the 1920 Targa Florio a bloke called Ferrari was driving the second string / smaller car which finished (always helps), won the touring car class and came second overall.

By 1924 Alfa had hired a couple of ex Fiat GP guys, Bazzi (a friend of Ferrari's) and Jano. The GP car produced won the European GP in France convincingly and Fiat pulled out of GP after that. Jano was now Alfas primary designer / engineer especially of racing engines.

1925 world championship was won by Alfa, at which point the laurel wreath border was added to the Alfa Romeo badge...

Ferrari was running Scuderia Ferrari, Alfas factory race team, and still racing himself until 1932.

Stuff happened, including a depression and a government bailout... Ferrari was briefly independent (Alfa had no money for racing) before being brought back in house briefly - this didn't last long and Ferrari left and started his own racing parts/engineering company.

In 1937 Jano moved from Alfa to Lancia

There was another war...

After the war as things got back on some sort of footing Ferrari was an Alfa competitor -in the 1948 GP there were Alfas racing against Ferraris.

Lancia briefly entered F1 in 1954 with the D50, a V8 powered car massively ahead of its time and designed by Jano. For a number of reasons Lancia exiteded F1 the same year and the race division with Jano transferred to Ferrari. Ferrari F1 through the 50s were evolutions of this car.

Jano's V8 engine or an evolution of it, and the related V6 design were introduced in the Dino series and evolution of this V8 design powered all V8 Ferraris until a new design was introduced in the F430. It is this F430 (admittedly not Jano designed - he died in 1965) version that is related to the contemporary Maserati V8 and is used in the 8C...

So, there's just one thread of italian race / high performance engine and car design drawn along the 8C branch of the whole tree of such development. And the whole thing has at its roots Fiat, but a huge period of development under the Alfa umbrella, before the racing side of things split off into Ferrari, and Jano's engineering brilliance departing to Lancia, being pulled back together into the Fiat conglomerate at the end. Thats a "brand" worth preserving rather than destroying by rebadging Chryslers...

[Davidm1600]

Well said all, re this. For I too generally have to agree with what has been said in defence of Alfa.  One really minor mistake in a point that 1750GT was making re Fiat not making top end 6 cylinder motors apart from the Dino, which of course was by Ferrari.

Both the luxury 130 Sedan and Coupe had their own V6, twin cam not quad cam as per the Dino, originally it came in 2.8L and later for most of the 130s made in 3.2L.  While many have tried to attribute these as being Dino motors in fact they had virtually nothing in common with the Dino engine.  The 130 engine was a superb, torquey motor.  I know as I had a 130 sedan and my brother still has a collection of coupes and sedans.  However, before the 130, Fiat also made the 1800, 2100 and 2300 sedan/coupe (basically the predecessor to the 130) and all of these were straight 6cylinder motors.  The coupe even came in an Abarth version and by most motoring journos of the era they viewed the 2300 coupe as a cut price Ferrari.  Also if you go back sufficiently in time to the late '20s and 30s Fiat also made a range of models with 6 cylinder motors.  Also don't forget the Otto Vu (otherwise known as the 8V) in the late 50s early 60s, for that was a limited production high end sportscar, effectively the equivalent of the Alfa 8C.

My point being that Fiat actually has a history equal to that of Alfa as a significant Italian car maker, including upper shunter models.   I can bet you anything for instance that if the 130 coupe had been given a Ferrari badge rather than a Fiat badge it would have better appreciated by many, for the quality of the cars is that good. 

Fiat also as many of you may remember also have a long and proud history of sportscars and sport sedans over the past 100 years.  I could list them but it might take too long.

So ultimately for me, I have absolutely no problem with Alfa being a part of the Fiat group and with Ferrari, Lancia and Maserati DNA in the fold, as far as I am concerned we really shouldn't have anything to fear, and rather on the contrary much to look forward to. 

What I would seriously love to see is an Alfa sedan the equal of if not better than the BMW 3 series and especially the M3 and Audi A4 equivalent.  That in my view would be the market to target, and give Alfa heaps of cred.  Basically a reborn Giulia Super, how cool would that be.

[pete barr]

Alfa Romeo? - prettiest Fiats ever made!

[1750GT]

DavidM/Duk thanks for generally agreeing and yes it was a long response (the passion!). David, thisnk for reminding me of the Fiat sixes I thought the sixes used in the Fiat Dino were a Ferrari six.

Darryl I too see the notion of a JeepAlfa SUV as being awful but I don't think its a change to Alfa's strategy its just Alfa trying to lift sales and cover a market niche (like BMW - X1/X3, Porsche with Cayenne, Merc with M serious etc.)

Whilst I can see the discussion about is the 8C/4C an Alfa or do they have drivetrains by others, when I look at the overall product and design I see an Alfa? not another car and in the end the market buying these vehicles sees Alfa and this is a good thing. Don't forget some of the worlds most prestigious makers (aside from probably Merc and BMW) product share, consider these:
Lamborghini (owned by Audi/VW) - use Audi/VW engines and FWD drivelines and their switch gear has been said to come straight out of an Audi A8. Bentley (also owned by VW) use VW engines and drivelines

Rolls Royce (owned by BMW) uses BMW tech

Porsch (part of the VW group) uses VW tech for its SUV's, they are now looking at "affordable" porsche cars which will use VW tech, engines and drivelines. A agree with DavidM, the overall objective is for Alfa to produce cars that match BMW,Audi and Merc, product sharing can only help Alfa so if they are product sharing (even for the 8C and 4C) this is a good thing as long as the spirit of the Alfa product remains and they produce truly great cars comparable to the other prestige brands. Alfas being the best Fiats ever built, lets hope so.
1750GT

[Davidm1600]

Hi 1750GT, yes actually you are correct, the Fiat Dino coupe and spider used exactly the same engine as per the "Ferrari Dino"  Originally they came as the all alloy 2.0L and later changed up to the classic 246 engine (that is 2.4L), cast iron block with alloy heads.  These engines were a quad cam V6.  In the Fiat Dino's they mated these up to the ZF gearbox, while Ferrari used a different gearbox.

What I was referring though was in respect of Lampredi's design for the 130 sedan and coupe, which also was a V6 but only single overhead cam and of a different V angle.  Hence my comment that while many pundants claim the 130 had the Dino engine or a Dino inspired engine, in fact they were completely different.  The only shared parts between the Fiat Dino coupe and the 130 was in respect of some suspension and brake components. 

As to the comment re Alfa's being the prettiest Fiat's ever made, hmn, no sorry can't agree with such a view.  If you want to look at the prettiest Fiat ever made, you could be hard pressed to go past say the Fiat Dino spider (no Alfa in that one) although I actually like the coupe better, or perhaps the 124 spider, nice, or even the Barchetta, again zip Alfa in those.  Ditto the 1600 Osca spider (cool and so rare), some of the Otto Vu's were equal to some of the best Maserati's, Ferraris and even Pagaso's of the late '50s and early 60s. 

The current generation of Alfas made from the 156 onwards are not Fiats, but Alfas in their own right IMHO.  Sure they are under the umbrella of Fiat and therefore share design elements with Fiat but so are Ferrari (have been since the late '60s) and yet I never hear anyone complaining that they are overpriced Fiats. Ditto Maserati for quite a few years.  My 156 is an Alfa, it does things that Alfa's do, it speaks to me with soul and passion.  It has design ques from the 1750 Berlina, as does say the 159 have links to the 2L Berlina.  If you doubt me have a look at the instrument panels.  While the GTV/GTV6 to me felt like a modern version of the classic 105 coupe, albeit FWD.

Then how about Lancia.  You only have to think back to the awesome Delta Integrale.  Trust me, my brother has one, as well as a Flamminia pininfarina coupe and the Delta is a Lancia.  It ain't no Fiat, it is far too querky to be one.

I think this is a topic of conversation which polarises peoples opinions.  That is perfectly fine, but all I can suggest is try to be a little rationale in one's thinking on this. As others have said, and I agree, this sort of thing has always happened, and is only likely to get worse re "badge engineering' rather then better. The days of major brands being solely owned rather than part of a larger group are long gone. The economics simply don't work for that sort of business model, as nice and nostalgic it might be to think otherwise.

[1750GT]

DavidM I think we basically agree as I said in my response when listing a number of premium manufacturers who use parts and chasis from parent companies and the fact that I agree that the bar is for Alfa to get back on even par with BMW/Mercedes/Audi.

If Alfa is using chasis and parts from within teh Fiat group then thats fine as long as they continue to keep their desgin independance. Parts and chasis sharing can only help the brand survive and move forward as your right the days of Alfa making their own cars, as with many other premium manfacturers are probably over.

By saying that - Alfa's, best Fiats ever made, Lets hope so, I was responding to Peter's quote the reponse before; it was not meant to suggest that Alfa's are simply Fiats.

1750GT