What Defines A Car Brand???

[oz3litre]

The current generation of Alfas made from the 156 onwards are not Fiats, but Alfas in their own right IMHO.  Sure they are under the umbrella of Fiat and therefore share design elements with Fiat but so are Ferrari (have been since the late '60s) and yet I never hear anyone complaining that they are overpriced Fiats. Ditto Maserati for quite a few years.  My 156 is an Alfa, it does things that Alfa's do, it speaks to me with soul and passion.  It has design ques from the 1750 Berlina, as does say the 159 have links to the 2L Berlina.  If you doubt me have a look at the instrument panels.  While the GTV/GTV6 to me felt like a modern version of the classic 105 coupe, albeit FWD.

I think this is a topic of conversation which polarises peoples opinions.  That is perfectly fine, but all I can suggest is try to be a little rationale in one's thinking on this. As others have said, and I agree, this sort of thing has always happened, and is only likely to get worse re "badge engineering' rather then better. The days of major brands being solely owned rather than part of a larger group are long gone. The economics simply don't work for that sort of business model, as nice and nostalgic it might be to think otherwise.

[oz3litre]

I think this is a topic of conversation which polarises peoples opinions.  That is perfectly fine, but all I can suggest is try to be a little rationale in one's thinking on this. As others have said, and I agree, this sort of thing has always happened, and is only likely to get worse re "badge engineering' rather then better. The days of major brands being solely owned rather than part of a larger group are long gone. The economics simply don't work for that sort of business model, as nice and nostalgic it might be to think otherwise.
[/quote]
At last there are some people talking sense in this argument. I have been following the Alfa BB thread as well, but this is the most informed discussion in my opinion. DavidM and 1750GT have articulated what I have thought all along. I agree that the 156s etc are every bit Alfas.

I would love to add a Delta Integrale to my collection. A friend of ours in Italy had a fabulous red one, but foolishly I didn't get her to take me for a blast in it or take a pic of it. It was one of the higher performance ones with the full body kit. I didn't realise what they were at the time, (2002).

[1750GT]

AH oz3litre, a man after my own heart, the  Delta Integrale!! a beautifual car, I've only been in one once, a right hand drive converted job that was painted up with the Integrale rally body kit in racing colors.

Unfortunatlely the Integrale has never become a collectors car, in Australia anyway and all the examples I've seen (except for the one I got a drive in) have either been shockingly looked after or modified or the owner thinks they have a rare ferrari and want big dollars for a car thats just not worth it.

I have come close to the brink of purchase, the last time was just before I bought my current Alfa a 1750GT. Boy I love the Alfa but a real deal integrale would be sublime (when the prices become realistic).

Maybe one day. By the way thats a neat collection of family Alfa's, how did you manage the get the whole brood to drive an Alfa?

1750GT

[Duk]

Opinions on this subject will always vary, and that is good. If everyone had the same opinion, the world would be a very boring place indeed.

But, there has been very little commented on what people believe constitutes a car brand.

For me, the car starts with the chassis.
Not just some numerical value of how far apart the wheels are, but the design of the suspension, half of the suspension's geometry, the torsional and bending rigidity characteristics, the placement of the major masses (engine, transmission, occupants) and what wheels send the car down the road.

But how much change, if any, allows 1 car name to take ownership or credit for that particular chassis?

I maintain that the chassis should start life designed by the manufacturer whose name adorns the body.

A personal point, I've modified my Alfa 75's chassis with additional bracings and some seam welding, so does anybody consider it to be different chassis or a modified Alfa chassis? I call it a modified Alfa chassis.
Same said for the suspension. If you put different brand of dampers (shock absorbers) into you car, then it's no longer to original specs, but how many people would call it a new suspension system/design?
Even with geometry changes, pivot point change's, wheel alignment spec change's, spring and damper change's, I still call what I'm doing with my Alfa, simply 'modified Alfa Romeo suspension'.

[oz3litre]

But, there has been very little commented on what people believe constitutes a car brand.

This probably boils down to what is essentially a subjective argument and we could discuss it until the cows come home and never reach a conclusion. Alternatively you might end up deciding that there is no such thing as a car brand any more and it will all start to get a bit silly. Even in the pre war days, many cars were a mixture of parts. Cords, Auburns and Duesenbergs for example, ran Lycoming engines, so was a Cord a Cord, or a Lycoming, or a Cordoming? It was also common for companies to produce the rolling chassis and customers would commission a coach builder to build a body for it. What would you have called the car then, if you wanted to be pedantic about it? As far as I am concerned, Alfas are still Alfas and I am happy to leave it at that.

[Duk]

I wonder if the supporters of the FIAT ere Alfa Romeo's would be so supportive and so sure about these cars being an Alfa Romeo, if the equivalent year model FIAT's were also sold here in Australia at the same time, so a direct comparison could be made.

[Davidm1600]

I might try to answer some of the interesting points made.  Yes Duk, I would be perfectly happy to have been in a position to make a direct comparison between a Fiat and a post Fiat takeover Alfa, but for us in Aus this is a moot point as for the period of time post the Regatta and until the introduction of the new model Fiats, no new models were available.  Australia in fact missed out on Fiats for longer than we missed out on Alfas. We still don't get Lancia either.

The Barchetta if it had been made in RHD and available in Aus would have been a very tasty number, ditto the Abarth 130TC Regatta, the Turbo Uno etc etc.  I am sure if one went searching on Google or read the UK or Euro motoring press such comparisons may well have been done.

1750GT and OZ3Litre you guys rock.  For me you understand that the world of manufacturing, economics and also ultimately customer demand dictates what is available in the market place.  Yep you were spot on re the Duesenbergs, Cords etc.   As I previously noted none of this is new and no one really should be surprised.  For me, the brand of a car is not the sum part or for that matter necessarily a single component (even be it the "chassis") of a car.  Let me try to explain what I mean, we all know that Maserati, Lamborghini, ASA, Iso, even Ferrari, or Lotus (just for a UK brand), all raided the parts bins of other manufacturers be they Fiat, Ford or even yes Alfa to create their car, and yet I would argue that the rationale person would still say they were unique brands.

For me and hopefully in a part this kind of answers Duk's question, a car Brand is about the person or company that has tried to establish it in the first instance.  For a modern example, take Lexus (now I don't ever want one as I don't like them), but Toyota would I am sure strongly argue that Lexus is a car brand in its own right, even though we all know they are upper shunter Toyotas.  But to an extent beyond my cynicism, maybe they are right, for I suspect the average punter would probably agree it is a car brand in its own right. Its one downside is that it has relatively little history, and perhaps this is the real point behind a car brand ??

Should for example HSV or FSV be considered a brand, afterall they have a marketing edge given this, ditto AMG, M series, Abarth (well I will come back to this in a sec), and are sold as such. No I don't actually think these are brands albeit they are a specialised version of an existing brand.  Abarth perhaps being the exception, historically, as it was a brand in its own right designing and building its own cars.  Having said that Abarth originally was doing the same as the above to very basic Fiats and of course that is again where it is at.

Take Porsche, originally the designs for Porsches were based around VWs but as we all know they very rapidly established themselves as a brand in their own right, albeit that again the wheel has turned and they have very good links once again to VW. 

As I have said before, while there is a world of small brand solo manufacturers making specialised cars, in large, cars these days regardless of their badge or name (which perhaps today is all that is left, hopefully not), are made by a relatively small number of manufacturers.  Therefore what to me defines ultimately the brand is for a large part the history behind it.  This much I know we all can agree on Alfa Romeo has truck loads of this to help define its brand. In terms of any new model that is made by the company, it then becomes important (to me) that there is evidence of the brand's DNA, and I am not simply referring to a name or a badge etc.  As said before I find sufficient DNA evident in my 156 for me to be satisfied it is an Alfa, obviously others will disagree.  I don't have a problem with that.

To me, the 156 was precisely the car Alfa needed at the time, it has significant design qualities within it, as per previous Alfas, look at the hidden rear door handles, or the elegance of the front door handles, the historical references in the grill to earlier models, the instruments are pure 1750 Berlina (albeit updated), the shear beauty of the design of the sedan or Sportwagon an ethos of previous good Alfa sedan design.  I could go on. Also they drive bloody well, and then there was the GTA version. 

Nuff said from me on that.

Hey OZ/1750GT, yes me too I am still waiting to go for a ride in my brother's Integrale.  I don't know what he paid for it (he is kind of cagey re such things), it is an 8V version but apparently they go very well and are less complicated than the 16V.  He blew the turbo and is in the process of getting this rebuilt so hopefully it will be on the road, soonish.  His is red, and not mucked around with apart from a big white flash on the bonnet with Malborough script on it.  Well it was typically Rally advertising in the '80s. 

[Duk]

1750GT and OZ3Litre you guys rock.  For me you understand that the world of manufacturing, economics and also ultimately customer demand dictates what is available in the market place.

I don't agree that the customer has much say or influence in what type of Alfa Romeo's are produced. Since the FIAT take over, with the exception of getting a few more years out of the 75 and the brief stint of the SZ/RZ, where have the rear wheel drive cars been? Please, no mention of the 8C! Apart from the fact that I don't consider it to be a true Alfa Romeo (as mentioned all ready), it's not a realistic car for the masses.
The only influence I've been able to have over Alfa Romeo is to vote with my feet and simply not buy a newer 1. I'm pretty sure that hasn't shown up on some analysts pie chart at FIAT  .

For me and hopefully in a part this kind of answers Duk's question, a car Brand is about the person or company that has tried to establish it in the first instance.  For a modern example, take Lexus (now I don't ever want one as I don't like them), but Toyota would I am sure strongly argue that Lexus is a car brand in its own right, even though we all know they are upper shunter Toyotas.  But to an extent beyond my cynicism, maybe they are right, for I suspect the average punter would probably agree it is a car brand in its own right. Its one downside is that it has relatively little history, and perhaps this is the real point behind a car brand ??

As an active Toyota owner, the general consensus amongst 'true' Toyota fan (those guys who get their hands dirty working on their cars) is that Lexus is not a stand alone manufacturer and just an upmarket name that gets applied to Toyota's more luxury orientated cars. For example, there were no Lexus versions of the Supra, but there were Lexus versions of the Soarer.
Having said that, the Lexus LFA is wholely and solely Lexus, with no Toyota equivalent. So at that point Lexus could, and probably should, be considered a car manufacturer in its own right.
The Lexus name is just a marketing ploy to help sell upper market cars in the USA. After all, Toyota can definitely build the cars with quality and luxury, but the Yanks have this negative association with names like Toyota and Honda (Accura). Much like they can't handle numbers being used as or in car names, the 75 became the Milano, the MX5 became the Miata all because of marketing. I believe that to be insulting to the designers, but the idea is to sell cars............

Should for example HSV or FSV be considered a brand, afterall they have a marketing edge given this, ditto AMG, M series, Abarth (well I will come back to this in a sec), and are sold as such. No I don't actually think these are brands albeit they are a specialised version of an existing brand.  Abarth perhaps being the exception, historically, as it was a brand in its own right designing and building its own cars.  Having said that Abarth originally was doing the same as the above to very basic Fiats and of course that is again where it is at.

I don't think that many people would ever consider the likes of HSV, FSV, FPV, AMG or M series cars to be manufactures in their own right, but company approved specialist vehicles or 'an in houses tuning house'.

[colcol]

And those that whinge about look what Fiat done to Alfa Romeo, just remember Fiat saved us from a fate worse than death, Ford buying us, the Ford executives were in Italy in 86 sniffing around looking for a new toy they could play with, and most likely call their sporting cars Alfa Romeo's, just like they used to call their luxury cars 'ghia', i beleive the sticking point was with the Italian Goverment, was the cars being built outside Italy, then after all the offers and prices were looked at, Fiat came in and purchased them, look what General Motors did to poor old SAAB, another good car maker gone to the wall, and i am genuinely upset about SAAB, because we need more SAAB car makers around and less Toyotas, what happened to SAAB, could have easily been Alfa Romeo, Colin.

[Duk]

And those that whinge about look what Fiat done to Alfa Romeo, just remember Fiat saved us from a fate worse than death, Ford buying us, the Ford executives were in Italy in 86 sniffing around looking for a new toy they could play with, and most likely call their sporting cars Alfa Romeo's, just like they used to call their luxury cars 'ghia', i beleive the sticking point was with the Italian Goverment, was the cars being built outside Italy, then after all the offers and prices were looked at, Fiat came in and purchased them, look what General Motors did to poor old SAAB, another good car maker gone to the wall, and i am genuinely upset about SAAB, because we need more SAAB car makers around and less Toyotas, what happened to SAAB, could have easily been Alfa Romeo, Colin.

You anti-Toyota people really have got to get out there and drive some decent, sporty ones.
And what's this 'us' business? Are you a share holder of Alfa Romeo?

[oz3litre]

Hey OZ/1750GT, yes me too I am still waiting to go for a ride in my brother's Integrale.  I don't know what he paid for it (he is kind of cagey re such things), it is an 8V version but apparently they go very well and are less complicated than the 16V.  He blew the turbo and is in the process of getting this rebuilt so hopefully it will be on the road, soonish.  His is red, and not mucked around with apart from a big white flash on the bonnet with Malborough script on it.  Well it was typically Rally advertising in the '80s. 

I have just been looking up details and photos of the Integrales and our friend's car in Italy was definitely a 4WD, 16v and was either an Evo 1 or Evo 2. It had the muscular guards, bonnet bulge and four round headlights. I went through my photo album from that trip in 2002 and sadly I can't find any photos of it so far.

[colcol]

This 'us' business, we bleed for Alfa Romeo when it goes wrong, we defend Alfa to the hilt against neighbours, people at work when they try and sully the name of Alfa Romeo, thats why we get up early on a Sunday morning and go for a drive in our sports cars, only to be held up by people in their 'whitegoods' Toyota Camrys, does that define a maker?, Colin.

[1750GT]

Duk rememebr this is an Alfa Romeo forum! so your always going to get some stick if you mention toyota in the same breath as Alfa Romeo. Even the guys who persist in talking about rexes and lancer evo's get some stick.

I know what you mean about Toyota (supra, soara, early celica's, sprinter etc. etc.) tunable fun cars, some well ahead of their time in terms of tunability, all wheel drive etc. but those days have gone and the LFA is just not the common mans car (a similar thing has been said about the 8C on this forum when anyone mentions it!), todays toyotas, except possibly the new FT86 are just blue rinse cars.

Alfa romeo definitely has the cred over toyota even though Alfa has from time to time produced some lemons. The japs decided long ago that they were going to produce you and me cars for the masses (with a continued obsession with four wheel drives) and whilst they have produced some great boring cars, this has meant that their cred in the sports car market has gone south. The japs unlike the euro's also decided that rather than having skin in the game in both sports cars and you and me cars they stuck to the you and me cars, and front wheel drive from the 90's.

Imagine if toyota, mitsubushi and nissan decided to take on the Euro's in the sports car market rather than become volume junkies! with the sort of stuff they were producing in the 80's we may all be celbrating the new luxury sports car makers as being the japanese.

But alas this did not happen and the euro brands, including Alfa still reign supreme in the sports luxury class.

1750GT

[Davidm1600]

Just going slightly off topic for a second, hey OZ my brother's Integrale has the bulging flared guards, not sure re bonnet bulge, will check. It is definitely AWD, but given its an 8v I would assume (perhaps incorrectly) an Evo 1. It definitely has 4 round headlights. I do have a photo of it somewhere and can post later. 

Ok, Duk I somehow doubt I can convince you of my convictions as similarly you won't convince me that the modern Alfa isn't one and that the brand doesn't exist.   I do realise this is also perhaps not quite what you originally asked as a question.  Perhaps this is immaterial and we each are entitled to think what we will.  It is the same for anyone else who has commented, the one thing though perhaps hopefully you might accept that what constitutes a brand historically is perhaps a little different today. 

I certainly wasn't trying to imply that the consumer dictates to the company what to make but at least our buying power can perhaps to a point influence this.  Maybe I am nieve in my thinking re this and it is really the marketing/advertising guys who really dictate what happens. 

As to my comments re Lexus and ditto per the other comments re tuning houses, I was trying to simply extrapolate a number of points re where does a brand originate from.  As you would have read from my comments I too don't see them as a car brand but rather a marketing perspective only.  However, some people might disagree with this view, and that is what I was trying to point out. 

Now I am perfectly happy to admit I have no love for Toyotas. Personally I have never driven any of the sportish models, ie. Celica of any model, Supra or Sora, and somehow don't ever wish to.  I have driven normal white good model sedans and wagons/4WDs and while perfectly competent, to me they are so insipid and uninspiring.  On the other hand, and perhaps this also dates me I am aware that Toyota actually did once make a superb (albeit very limited production) sports car with a Yamaha engine. 

For my money Honda has more cred as a sports car maker, and ditto Nissan/Datsun and even Mazda.  One only has to think of models such as the S600/S800 Honda or the S2000, the MX5 and similarly the Datsun 1600/2000 roadster, the incomparable 240Z and 260Z, while more modern versions such as the 350/370Z and of course Skyline coupes (various models) are characteristic sports cars in their own right.  Similarly Subaru's WRX has been without exception a superb performance car.  But these models are not by and large the bread and butter of these brands.

So I hopefully am indicating I am not anti Japanese, and happy to give credit where it is due., but and back to the topic of Alfas, for as 1750 GT correctly notes this is an Alfa forum, in simple terms I love Alfas, be they sportscars or sedans or even wagons, and just because Fiat is the parent doesn't matter an iota to me, so long as it feels like, drives like and looks like an Alfa to me.  The day they stop doing this, then I too will be sad.

[Duk]

Duk rememebr this is an Alfa Romeo forum! so your always going to get some stick if you mention toyota in the same breath as Alfa Romeo. Even the guys who persist in talking about rexes and lancer evo's get some stick.

I know what you mean about Toyota (supra, soara, early celica's, sprinter etc. etc.) tunable fun cars, some well ahead of their time in terms of tunability, all wheel drive etc. but those days have gone and the LFA is just not the common mans car (a similar thing has been said about the 8C on this forum when anyone mentions it!), todays toyotas, except possibly the new FT86 are just blue rinse cars.

Alfa romeo definitely has the cred over toyota even though Alfa has from time to time produced some lemons. The japs decided long ago that they were going to produce you and me cars for the masses (with a continued obsession with four wheel drives) and whilst they have produced some great boring cars, this has meant that their cred in the sports car market has gone south. The japs unlike the euro's also decided that rather than having skin in the game in both sports cars and you and me cars they stuck to the you and me cars, and front wheel drive from the 90's.

Imagine if toyota, mitsubushi and nissan decided to take on the Euro's in the sports car market rather than become volume junkies! with the sort of stuff they were producing in the 80's we may all be celbrating the new luxury sports car makers as being the japanese.

But alas this did not happen and the euro brands, including Alfa still reign supreme in the sports luxury class.

1750GT

First thing I need to say, and I'm sure that most people will be in agreeance, is that there is the very real potential for 'the communicated message' to be misinterpreted, when shared in written form. Without being able to properly communicate tone and facial expression, the desired attempt at communication can be all sorts of things to all sorts of people.
Certainly Oz and myself have had some 'interesting' conversations on the AlfaBB..............  

Next:
I'm not trying to be some sort of religious door knocker, trying to convert anyone, and the only flag I wave here is the Alfa Romeo one, but one thing that has been obvious to me over the years, is the ignorance of people who prefer their dedicated brands/make/marque of car. And this is truly a sticking point for me!

Alfa romeo definitely has the cred over toyota even though Alfa has from time to time produced some lemons. The japs decided long ago that they were going to produce you and me cars for the masses (with a continued obsession with four wheel drives) and whilst they have produced some great boring cars, this has meant that their cred in the sports car market has gone south. The japs unlike the euro's also decided that rather than having skin in the game in both sports cars and you and me cars they stuck to the you and me cars, and front wheel drive from the 90's.

1750, the above comment tells me that you really, and I mean REALLY need to go out there and enjoy some more of the world!
Some of the real drivers cars from the various Japanese manufacturers since the late 80's to the late 90's. This will be a pretty long, but brief in detail list:

Toyota:
AW11 mode MR2 (1985-1989). Mid engined car with either the very sporty NA 1.6 litre, 16 valve twin cam engine or the very similar thing with a positive displacement supercharger. Sort of built from the Corolla parts bin 'cause they share the engine and to a degree, transmission and things like wheel bearings. (Notice how this car is first and I have 1 too? How absolutely amazing   )
SW20 MR2 (1990-1999). Again, a mid engined car. Using the bigger 2 litre either normally aspirated or turbo charged. These shared parts with the Celica's of the same era.
JZX90 Chaser. Front engine, rear wheel drive, twin turbo 2.5 litre 6 cylinder 4 door sedan. McPherson strut front suspension, multi-link rear suspension. Very similar to the Cressida's that were sold here, but sportier and gruntier. Same said for the (MZ and JZ70) Supra's of that era.
The JZX100 Chasers. Very similar to the above but with more development. They used a single turbo'd version of engine that now had variable valve timing.
The JZA80 Supra. Multi link suspension front and rear, that used forged aluminium control arms. Front engine, rear wheel drive. The TOUGH AS NAILS, sequential twin turbo engine that mad oodles of torque everywhere (no, 'your(who ever is reading this)' Alfa Romeo engine does not compete with this engine! Except in music  ). A real sports car and super tourer.

Nissan:
S13-S14-S15 model Silvia's, 180SX and what we know as the 200SX. Very similar underneath with variations in chassis as the car matured. McPherson strut front suspension and a multi-link rear suspension. Engines were either normally aspirated or turbo charged 1.8 (early) or 2 litre engines. The engine is set back(ish) in the engine bay to help with weight distribution and give a lower polar moment of inertia. The following of these cars though Japan, Australia and America is ABSOLUTELY MASSIVE!!!! I rate these cars as the best, modern incarnation of a 105 GTV ever. OK, maybe they can argue with the MX5...........  
R32-33-34 Skylines. Multi link front and rear suspension. Solid, rear wheel drive chassis. The only ones worth mentioning are the turbo'd GTSt variants and obviously, the GTR variants of each model. There is no need to mention the Group A era of Australian Touring Car Racing (whops  ) The R34 GTR was the fastest production car around the Nurburgring when it was first produced.
There were also various sporting sedans available at the same time using variants of the Silvia and Skyline chassis but using either the Skyline straight 6 cylinder engines or the V6 engines.
Z32 300ZX. very similar to the R32 Skyline chassis but they used the normally aspirated and twin turbo, 3 litre V6 (quad cam, 24 valve) engine.

Honda:
The NSX! Not much more needs to be said other than when it was new, it was a beautifully engineered, all aluminium chassis with forged aluminium control arm multi-link suspension, a variable valve timing V6 engine that upset Ferrari (by churning out a better power per litre number) and Ayerton Senna helped Honda set it up!

Mazda:
FD3S (series 6-7-8) RX7. A well proportioned, front engine, rear wheel drive chassis. Forged aluminium control arm, mult-link independant suspension front and rear. The sequential twin turbo rotary engine was set behind the front axle line and the gearbox was linked to the differential via a 'ladder bar'.
Remember when Mazda took on and beat Porsche in the production car racing in the late 90's? I do!
I also remember no Alfa Romeos out there.

In the above era, there was a sort of 'gentleman's agreement' that no car manufacturer would produce any car with more than 280PS (Power Stroke, a metricated version of the horsepower) or about 208KW's and this had rather limiting effect on the performance of the bigger, heavier and potentially much more powerful cars like the Supra, the GTR and the RX7.
Think about the 3 litre Supra Turbo. 3 litre, twin cam, 24 valve (with variable valve timing in the later versions) engine that had 440Nm or torque @ 3600rpm and could have easily made 100hp/litre or 300hp. The 2 litre Evo Lancers and STi WRX's got to the 280PS mark quickly, so they were close to 140hp/litre. The Supra's 2JZGTE (Toyota's engine code) engine is MASSIVELY strong and 140hp/litre would have been a walk in the park for it. A grand total of 420hp!  

Now, I've left out the AWD rally-esk style cars like the WRX and Evo Lancers and I'm the first to admit that some of those cars were pretty expensive when new, but between the late 80's, with the exception of what was left of the 75's and the late 90's, what were Alfa Romeo churning out? Nothing but front wheel drive cars! So, sorry mate, but:

this has meant that their cred in the sports car market has gone south. The japs unlike the euro's also decided that rather than having skin in the game in both sports cars and you and me cars they stuck to the you and me cars, and front wheel drive from the 90's.

is very, very wrong.