Police enforcing speed

[colcol]

On the news tonight, the latest 'war against speed', is just getting more silly every day, due to fact that the road toll is up on last years road toll, the Victorians are going to have Helicopters flying above the freeways checking the speeds of the cars and radioing down to the patrol cars to apprehend the offending motorist, is this the biggest waste of money you have ever heard of?, how much would it cost to run the Helicopter, $10,000 per hour?, how many motorists are they going to have to book to pay for this stupid public relations stunt?, by now there must be enough speed cameras to catch all the Larry lead foots, on my drive to work of 35klms, according to my GPS, there are 14 speed cameras, if you start to drift 2 klms over the speed limit, by watching the road, instead of your speedo, one of the million cameras will get you, leave the helicopters to do real community work, by finding lost kids, or taking heart attack victims to hospital, Colin.

[Fetta GTV]

Exactly, what a waste of time and money

[Steve S]

I couldn't believe they would admit to such a thing let alone be proud. 

[MD]

It would seem that to blame speed alone for the road toll is to claim all pregnancies are due to a lack of condom use. It isn't that simple but it is the simplest way to make revenue. A few issues that come to mind that produce road accidents but are not speed related.

Driver error
Poor driver skills
Poor judgment
Poor vision
Lack of anticipation
Lack of safety car maintenance
Poor road maintenance
Bad road planning
Under the influence
Adverse weather conditions
Lack of speed (piss poor performance during over taking)
Distractions

I am sure you can add a few to this list but for some genuine stroke of genius for our administrators, speed is the only one that we need to manage disproportionately.

I would like to see the statistics for road deaths that were purely attributed to speed compared with all road deaths to see what that relationship is.

You know, I always wondered when exactly was it that uniform speed regulations were ever introduced into Australian traffic laws. I mean on what basis were they set? Were the stopping and braking distances based on cheese cutter tyres made from some black stuff not related to tyres of today? Were the brake efficiencies the same as they are today? Were the suspension systems capable of the handling of modern cars? The answers is of course not !!

Logic would dictate that road behavior could be moderated consistent with improvements in vehicle performance (in the aggregate) and hence speed restrictions revised. But oh shit no, that would be way to practical and a revenue looser.

BTW if it hasn't happened already, get ready for trained koalas in gum trees with radar guns to monitor speed in the quest to reduce carbon emissions.

Someone once said that the Speed Control movement was like a bowel movement - they both give you the shits !

[aggie57]

Their next strategy:

[Barry Edmunds]

If anyone wants to discuss confusing messages from Vic Pol, can they explain the illuminated signs I have seen recently which state "Police Enforcing Speed" would have to rate among the most confusing message yet.

I wonder if a Magistrate would accept that sign as a defence after I was caught exceeding the posted speed limit by a small margin by one of the $10,000 an hour helicopters?

Perhaps someone from Vic Pol (or anyone else) might also consider explaining their oft used mantra SPEED KILLS and exactly what speed kills.

I accept that inappropriate speed can be a contributing factor to the road toll but that could involve a vehicle being driven at the legal speed of 40 kph in a school zone.

Barry

[Joe Garra]

Exactly Barry. A lot of the single vehicle accidents are caused by vehicles leaving the road doing ridiculous speeds and hitting trees. I'm also curious as to how booking someone doing 105 kmh on a divided freeway like the Princes will stop these types of accidents. Also if you follow the wipe off 5 argument logically we should ban all cars driving above walking pace.

[Chris Blanden]

I know this is probably a bit boring, but the Vic Govt and the Monash Uni Accident Research Centre (propounders of the "speed kills" mantra) already know the real relevance of speed.

For some idle reading go to  www.monash.edu.au/miri/research/reports/atsb127.html  and you will find a research paper titled "The Speed Review" done in 1993 by the same Monash Uni ARC.

Conclusion? Excessive speed is probably involved in 12 - 16%  of all crashes (note the use of the adjective).

No doubt the continuing need for research funding requires a more tell them what they want to hear approach!

[MD]

Going by your figures Chris, it would probably seem that 84-88% of fatal crashes are not the result of excessive speed.

I am not encouraging anyone to get stupid with speed. What I am saying is to get to know your car well. Get yourself skilled up at a good range a speeds especially the area of car control. Ensure your car is well serviced and finally for goodness sake pick an appropriate place for some exhilarating Alfa motoring. If you feel the need to go further, go to the track.

Only problem is, none of the control poobahs could see any logic in that at all.

[Duk]

When they started to consider speeding fines as part of the predicted state incomes, it then became a vested interest to over enforce it.
The fact that the road tolls stay about the same just shows that it's nothing more than a grab for cash.

The revenue raisers don't care if people die on the roads, it's leverage for them to add even more enforcement of speed limits. If they genuinely gave a sh!t, for starters, everyone who holds a license would have to do advanced and defensive driver training, the same training that emergency services like the Police, Fireies and Ambo's have to do.

I did laugh when Mark Skaife was on some News/Current Affair program ages ago, complaining about the over policing of speed limits in Australia and suggesting that good quality highway speeds should actually be increased.
The show then had some grief stricken father who had lost his daughter in a 'speed related' car accident some time in the past (years) saying how MS was wrong, that speed did kill and was very dangerous and MUST be policed with great vigor............. 

[colcol]

And on the way to Ballarat today i saw plenty of speed cameras making lots of money from the variable speed limits, [a real money spinner], what am i supposed to be doing 40-60-80-80-100?, i can't remember, snap!, too fast, then only one of the 'check speed here' indicators were working, so how do you know if your speedo is out?, bad luck, then there was a candy car sitting at the side of the road with a speed gun, as opposed to policing poor driving standards, but an absolute pearler was a billboard put up by i think it was 'citizens for safe driving', [wouldn't you love to be on that commitee], with  a cartoon picture of a car that has hit a pole, with the cars tongue hanging out the grill and the driver all crossed eyed with his head in an airbag, with the caption at the end, wait for it...... 'SPEED KILLS', but there were no Helicopters, Colin

[Davidm1600]

I remember doing a driver training session a couple of years ago with some trainers from the John Bowe Driving team. I have been organising these sessions for my work for many years now.

The comment made by the trainers was that the number one problem with drivers on the road today, was the driver's attitude.  That while many factors can be blamed including road design, road/weather conditions, car maintenance, a drivers health, level of training/experience on the road, intoxicants (alcohol/drugs) and yes also speed, that it is people who really are to blame for the majority of collisions.  They also distinguished the difference between car crashes/collisions and accidents, noting that most incidents on the road were not accidents in fact.

The point is cars these days are largely/relatively safe, the roads are in general pretty good, albeit there are plenty of shockers, but it is a person's attitude (that is the way you and other drivers, drive on the road). Road manners, consideration for others, leaving sufficient space between yourself and the next driver, driving to the conditions, having the correct set up (steering wheel to seat height distance, mirrors, distractions including phones), tyre pressure, good mechanical condition of your car, driver fatigue, one's emotional state etc that for the most part will dictate whether or not you are likely to have a crash/collision. 

The key message they imparted is that there is much you can do as a driver to ensure you are in the best condition/state of mind/alertness and your car is ok, etc to minimise such risks, but there is absolutely nothing you can do beyond giving yourself space on the road from other cars to try to prevent the risk. 

Speeding is an easy target to work on, as it carries emotive messages, just like drink/drug drivers do, but it is inherently wrong to state that it is the main cause.  Sure having plenty of cameras out there, cops on the road etc have had an impact on drivers in general travelling a lot slower than they used to but this also is a problem. But the huge range of speed limits them very selves as Col notes is a distraction in itself.  They can be so confusing to drivers that the inevitable happens and you end up getting fined, for actually not doing really anything wrong.  I would suspect that most drivers do not go out of their way to speed, but rather simply get caught for going just slightly over a limit, which down or up the road was different to where they are caught.

We have in general modern cars which are better equipped than ever to travel at a reasonable speeds on the highway and yet we restrict them to say, 80 or a 100/110km.  Our major highways are actually pretty good these days in terms of surface, camber, sufficient lanes and traffic barriers or better still separation distances, and yet our Pollies seem to increasingly act to further reduce the limits on such roads, let alone other ones.  Sure in suburban areas, school zones, shopping areas traffic speeds do need to be slower because of pedestrians etc, but on the open highway, I question their logic/thinking on this.

Over in Europe, as we all know in Germany on the Autobahns there is no upper limit, and in fact you can be fined for going too slow.  In Italy and France to the best of my memory the limit is 130Km on their highways, mind you plenty drive a lot faster than that.  I have driven many times in Europe and never once was concerned about the upper speeds I was travelling at, as were other drivers. 

Of course the opposite is true in Scandanavia where speeding is heavily targeted and the fines/disqualification etc is very heavy handed.  They also have a Zero limit for alcohol, but then again grog is expensive in such countries anyway.

Unfortunately for us our Pollies and the Police use Speed as a panacea, a bandaid to appease the general public who don't actually stop to think about such matters and do a little basic research into the causes for  crashes.  Ditto our Pollies have become addicted to the revenue, much like how they love the $$$ from gambling, even while saying how terrible it is to society blah blah blah. 

The best thing I think we can do in the car enthusiast arena is try to get the message out there that proper driver training for young people is paramount, everything else from there can follow. 

I have to admit that following the training course I did, it has changed my views on driving and how I drive on the road.  I am certainly a lot more sensible (have a better attitude) than when I was young and thought myself to be invincible.

Oh and BTW I don't think it costs $10K/hr for choppers, although I might be wrong. I only note this as my brother used to fly his clients out from SW Tassie after rafting the Franklin and I am pretty sure he told me that back then (say 5 + years ago) that the cost per hour was around $700.

[colcol]

The $10,000 per hour is a gestimate on my behalf, $700 per hour is not too bad, but still over the top for catching motorists 3 klms over the limit, we get the polititions we deserve, when we let them get away with this con, in Victoria, just before a holiday they have the chief commisioner of police delivering a statement that they are getting tough on speeding motorists, and for years he would give the command and all the candy cars would be driven out of the Dawson st. Brunswick traffic division, that would have Larry leadfoot shaking in his boots, we have allowed the goverments to get addicted to the revenue[drug], try and take it off them, Colin.

[Karu]

I am not too sure it was the chief of police Colin; I believe it was the police Superintendent's plan and he stated that the Chief Commissioner had not come aboard his plan at this stage. I was gob smacked because I was thinking this campaign has no real authority. As far as I can see, the Vic Police are a private company. Why else would they be in the phone book under Business and not Government. Also I find no reference to the Police in the Victorian Constitution. Although, it was a while ago I last looked. We have to remember, the Victorian Constitution can be changed whenever the Government require as no referendum is needed in this State. That is how John Brumby made himself as Premier the number One person in the State and removed the power of the State Governor to do representative duties only. Now our new Premier Ted Brumby is the top person. (Scary stuff hey?)

But, the problem is too many people do not want to learn their rights and just pay their fines. Speed cameras are illegal! The illegal speed cameras have to be recalibrated after each use and that can only be done by the CSIRO. An interesting case in the Supreme Court in the USA recently took place. The Judge ruled that because the USA is founded on Common Law the States nor Federal governments have no authority to place any costs on their roads. "Roads are as old as antiquity and as the public pay for the roads the people own the roads. No government has the right to charge for fines, registration or even licences. Roads have always been a means of journey and freedom." Now, while I personally believe we need licences as we do not want untrained idiots on the roads we should have a licence for life, not have to pay every 3 or 10 years. Once off egistration should just be remain until you release ownership of the vehicle, after all, until that time your car is still registered in your name whether you pay your registration or not. Last year there was a Supreme Court case here in Melbourne, you might remember it. A bloke finished his meal in a restaurant in the city and left, the police walked past at that moment and the restaurant owner came running out and told the police that "He didn't pay?" The police gave chase, one on foot and one in the cop car. They finally caught him in Flinders Street and arrested him. When in Court the defendant claimed he was in his right because he was not under arrest. The Magistrate agreed and let him leave. The Police took him to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Judge lady said. "I think you Police have forgotten that Common Law resides in this country and you cannot stop anyone unless they are under arrest." And she let him leave. Now this is big news, because in actual fact, we do not have to stop for a police car if we are certain we have no arrest warrant. Vic Roads laws state we do, but common law always prevails.

As for me, maybe I do have warrants for speed camera fines and not paying EastLink, but I do not consider them legal. Victorian legislation states that the police cannot work for private companies. Speed camera operators and EastLink are private companies, yet the fines are issued through Vic Police. A cop woman told me last week that it is not the case and the are working for the Perrin Court. I cannot see how this court can be legal because you, the defendant are not given an option of defending yourself, you just receive a higher cost fine in the mail.

Premier Steve Bracks signed an agreement with John Howard; the deal stated that the Scoresby freeway would never be a Tollway. The Howard Government was to pay $407 million and the Vic Gov was to pay the same amount. Steve Bracks was the first and only Premier to rip up a contract; a legally binding contract that still stands! His excuse? The Vic Government did not have $407 million dollars! Of course a huge lie because, he found close to two billion dollars to pay for the MYKI ticketing system. Oh yeah, we the people had to pay two thousand million dollars so a private company who does not pay one cent for anything can arm its Metro ticket inspector army with weapons to harm us and cause untold injury if we do not have a valid ticket. Staying on this subject for a minute. We used to have 3 zones, the removed zone 3 and now we have zones 1 and  2. When I would jump on a train in Belgrave (zone 2 now) and travel to Frankston (again zone 2 now) I would buy a zone 2 ticket, and why not? I am going from zone 2 to zone 2; I do not want to go via zone 1 (city), but the antiquated train system can only have me going that way. Now because MYKI times the trip I have to pay for going into zone 1.  I do not depart the station in zone 1 when transferring to another line, but I have to pay.
It is a pity they removed the ad "If you do not buy a ticket you had better ask a passenger if they want their lawns mowed." I was on the train with a mate and looked up when I heard the words in my ear "Tickets please." I replied "I don't need a ticket." "Why not." said the burly ticket inspector. "Because I asked this bloke if he needed his lawn mowed" pointing across to the opposite seat where my mate was sitting "and he said 'No' isn't that correct?" "Yes" said Rick. I continued "And you do not want me taking your employer to court for false advertising do you?" The ticket inspector said quietly with his eyes towards the floor "I have never heard that one before" and walked away with his work mates.

But, fellow Victorian members, remember this because it is extremely important. Learn you rights as much as possible, because when the true Vic premier Peter Ryan returns from New York everything will dramatically change unless you know your rights. He is returning with knowledge to ZERO TOLERANCE policies. And believe me, zero tolerance is just that, "ZERO" and unless you are prepared you can go to gaol for driving one kilometre over the speed limit.

I am so sick of public servants and their desire for power. We are the masters, they our servants and we have to remind everybody, the masters and the servants. I believe we should starve them out of their ivory towers. The secret is taxation!                         Let's look at THe United Nations Declaration of Human Rights:
Article 4. No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.    

Think of all the businesses throughout Australia collecting GST everyday, then at the end of the working day filling out all the taxation paper work and Bass statements. We do not receive payment for this so it is slavery and illegal. So let us get the word out there, and any company that is still willing to collect it from us we ban. There will be plenty of small Australian businesses that will join in because they will finally be competitive to those multi-national companies who will continue to collect GST while bringing down our US government controlled politicians. Enjoy, Karu      

[Karu]

This is meant to read.
It is a pity they removed the ad "If you do not buy a ticket you had better ask a passenger if they want their lawns mowed." I was on the train with a mate and looked up when I heard the words in my ear "Tickets please." I replied "I don't need a ticket." "Why not." said the burly ticket inspector. "Because I asked this bloke if he needed his lawn mowed" pointing across to the opposite seat where my mate was sitting "and asked him 'Isn't that correct?" "Yes" said Rick. I continued "And you do not want me taking your employer to court for false advertising do you?" The ticket inspector said quietly with his eyes towards the floor "I have never heard that one before" and walked away with his work mates.