Another GTV6 won't start issue

[Rigi]

Whilst sounding simplistic .. may I suggest you systematically check each of the major earthing points in terms of tightness and condition of the cable - particularly around the firewall area .. earthing problems have been one of the key issues in the GTV6 wiring area.

[Sheldon McIntosh]

Out of leftfield maybe, but I'm all out of other ideas going by what you've said so far.  You didn't park it on a hill with no handbrake I hope?  I only ask because I've heard of them rolling backwards slightly and skipping a tooth on the belt.

[Albygtv]

Thanks for even more suggestions guys. Interesting one about the timing belt - no I never park without the handbrake on but when I felt the timing belt it seemed quite loose to me. Mind you, I have no idea how tight its meant to be (and as I said earlier, it was running great when I parked it.)

This is probably going to end up being some stupid thing that I haven't thought of or did wrong and I'll be quite embarrassed if that's the case. Nevertheless, shall push on and see what happens. Have decided to quickly try the few things left that might give a quick, easy result - change the dizzy cap and rotor button, check all wire connections and earths again with particular attention to the sensors on the thermostat, remove the cold start injector and see if it squirts.

If none of those do the trick, then I'll start on a more methodical overhaul of the fuel system, starting with the filter as suggested and going on to the fuel pump and injectors and then on to the ignition system. Probably won't be able to attack these properly until Friday or Saturday, so will post progress when I can.

Cheers (and thanks again)

[Sheldon McIntosh]

Thanks for even more suggestions guys. Interesting one about the timing belt - no I never park without the handbrake on but when I felt the timing belt it seemed quite loose to me. Mind you, I have no idea how tight its meant to be (and as I said earlier, it was running great when I parked it.)

About 10mm deflection between the pulleys (in my experience anyway).

Very strange that you have spark and it won't kick over with Start Ya' Bastard.  And this is a new car, right?  It doesn't have an immobiliser or anything silly?

[Albygtv]

Hey Sheldon, Ha ha, good one - your making me smile. Yeah, an immobiliser would be a great example of me having done something stupid, but I haven't found one on the car so far  .
I'm pretty convinced that while the car has fuel and spark, one of them is below par. When I took the fuel inlet hose off and started the pump, it flowed but not any more than I've seen with non-EFI systems, certainly didn't seem like efi type pressure. Hence, my plan to start with overhauling the fuel components one at a time. That doesn't explain the non-starting with Start you Bastard. Maybe I need to try that again.

[Sheldon McIntosh]

I've been through this a few times, and I seem to recall that it was about 1 litre of fuel per minute should be about normal with the AFM flap open?  Don't quote me on that, I'm only going on memory.  But I would have thought you'd at least get a kick from Start Ya Bastard.  And, it shouldn't take much fuel pressure to get at least a kick anyway.  I'm well used to the 'kick, and then dies after 2 seconds' problem, which is almost always due to low fuel pressure.

The fact that you can't get any kick at all suggests something other then fuel, and the fact that it won't kick with ether suggests that it is certainly not a fuel problem. 

Otherwise, a loose wire somewhere would seem to be the obvious solution, I'd be checking everything very carefully.  Seriously, these engines are as reliable as anything this side of a Toyota, I've had one of these sitting for about 5 years and it still started first crank.

[Mat Francis]

I'm hardly one to be taken seriously after all the grief I've had thus far, but the first thing I would do, regardless of whether it fixes the problem or not, is change the fuel filter. $8.50 from MoParts in Croydon, or $15 from your local repco if that isn't nearby.

After I finally got my fuel issues sorted (with a "new" tank, new pump, new filter and new lines), it would take 5 or 6 seconds to fill a 600ml bottle (fuel line disconnected from the pulse regulator, which is mounted next to the double relay. On a 90 at least anyway).

While I was having issues (start then stall, missing, pinging, etc), the flow rate was much slower than this.

While you're changing the filter, it's probably also a good idea to just check the pump is getting a full 12V and has a good earth.

Got a timing light? Doesn't make sense as to why it would change since last driven, but another quick, free check that would be near the top of my list.

[marinoci]

I recently bought a gtv6 a few months back and recently had similar issues with mine.
I experienced 2 separate problems at different times.

Before I did anything, I checked for loose wires, earth connectors etc, because like you I drove it the day before, it was running fine and i just parked it in the garage.
I was also looking to change fuel filters, spark plugs, leads etc.. but didn't need to go that far before I got it operational.

First time I experianced this the cause was the AFM, something was causing the fuel pump not to run, i fiddled with the flap and eventually got the fuel pump to run. It hasn't failed with this issue since and I'm driving the car a few times a week.  My symptom was that the engine would start for about 5 seconds from start injector fuel but no fuel for piston injectors and the engine would die. If I pushed down on the throttle the engine would run for about 1 sec with fuel provided by start injector, if I didn't press on the throttle it would run for 5 secs before cutting out.

The Second time it was the lead on the very front of my cooling system thermostat, the ecu needs some sort of single back from the sensor on the thermostat for the engine to run properly. I had to clean the contacts and insert the plug properly to get the engine to start and run smoothly. The symptom was it would almost start and run but just would not idle and stall.

Hope this helps.
Marino

[aggie57]

Just by the by, in my experience the car should start without the AFM connected. It'll run seriously rich but it will start.

Marino - that start/stall problem is well known and is usually symptomatic of a wiring issue. I can't recall the exact sequence but by memory the ECU needs to see the fuel pump working to fire the main injectors. The double relay in the engine bay drivers side rear plays a part - take the 12v feed to this relay away (it's fed from the main fuse box) and you can repeat the problem.  Someone else will know the details for sure.

[Al Campbell]

Double relay is one of the usual culprits. New replacements are available. If you aren't getting anywhere after a while, maybe change it too. I'd almost say in this situation New Filter & New Double Relay would almost be a no brainer (but it's not my money).

Aggie57 is almost correct, car will start without the AFM connected, you can also drive around without it. I drove 10km and every time I used over about half throttle it would miss. Popped the bonnet to find I 'd left the AFM unplugged.

[Sheldon McIntosh]

Double relay is one of the usual culprits. New replacements are available. If you aren't getting anywhere after a while, maybe change it too. I'd almost say in this situation New Filter & New Double Relay would almost be a no brainer (but it's not my money).

The fuel pump is working though, so the double relay is fine.  Also, as stated already, the car won't even fire with Start Ya Bastard, which pretty much eliminates any fueling problems.

[aggie57]

Double relay is one of the usual culprits. New replacements are available. If you aren't getting anywhere after a while, maybe change it too. I'd almost say in this situation New Filter & New Double Relay would almost be a no brainer (but it's not my money).

The fuel pump is working though, so the double relay is fine.  Also, as stated already, the car won't even fire with Start Ya Bastard, which pretty much eliminates any fueling problems.

Well then, back to basics: fuel, compression, spark.  All three present and correct?  If yes, she fires (well or poorly, but something kicks).  If no, she won't.

[dehne]

Alby
Where are you located, maybe someone could swing by and help,
Sometime having 2 people there a diagnosis could be quicker

[Albygtv]

hey Dehne, I'm in richmond, Vic. Yeah, two people often work a lot better than one, but I'm a long way from giving up on this. In fact its a really great way to learn a lot more about these fabulous machines. (and I'm lucky that I have another car to use as a daily driver so the only time pressure is my own thoughts at any given time.

So tomorrow I'm going to tackle it very methodically and then we'll see where I've got to.There's a few simple suggestions I haven't tried yet and some bigger ones I'm happy to tackle if the simple ones don't work. Will report tomorrow night. Cheers

[Albygtv]

Well, made some progress today, although work interuptions kept wasting my time - don't they know what's more important?
Started by putting in a new battery as the old one didn't seem to be holding charge for long - tried starting engine, but no change to previous (that's abbreviated as BNCTP as I might be using it a bit).
Rechecked all wiring, especially around dizzy, coil, thermostat & firewall. Improved some connections and tested again. BNCTP.
Put a new rotor button in dizzy (type without an rpm over rev limiter - previous one had the limiter setup but limiter was taken out). tested BNCTP. Couldn't get a new dizzy cap but now have one on order,

Tried Start you Bastard again, BNCTP. This led me to test the fuel pump more thoroughly. Tried starting engine with air flap held open (to ensure it wasn't staying closed and therefore not triggering fuel pump) BNCTP. Pulled fuel line off inlet to fuel rail. Didn't seem to be any built up fuel pressure when I pulled line off. Started fuel pump with hose end in wine bottle (does owning old Alfa's result in more of these lying around??). Very good fuel flow out of hose. bottle half filled in seconds and fuel very clear and clean.

This all decided me that fuel is definately not the problem. Its flowing well (put my earlier test of this to it getting late and dark), can feel it in the lines, and more goes with Start you Bastard don't make any difference at all. So, it must be spark!!!!!

Did the "connect a spark plug lead to a spare spark plug test" again. No spark whatsover. Did it a number of times and couldn't get any spark at all. This same test showed a spark a few days ago, so either the new rotor button made things worse or the original problem has got worse. Went to test the coil as suggested and discovered its a MSD Blaster 2, whatever that means. According to MSD's website, the resistance should be Pri 0.7 ohms, Sec 4.7 K ohms. My readings were Pri 1.1 ohms and sec 5.5 K ohms. both outside the 10% margin but no clear info on the net as to whether they are too far out. Took off in Audi (never breaks down but very very boring) to buy new coil and try it. Just got back, totally out of luck in finding an MSD and an auto electrician told me I shouldn't use another coil if the car is set-up for this one. No idea how true / false this is.

Anyone know where I can get an MSD coil in Melbourne tomorrow?
That's it for today. Cheers