K&N Filter with cold air intake system

[krysRAW = AROCA-Vic PR =]

Hi guys!

I'm thinking of installing this on my 2004 156 JTS 2.0 5 speed manual:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/200788076863?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Can anyone tell me if this may effect the onboard computer ie engine warning lights, etc?

[wankski]

most washable K&N type filter require filter oil. They do not filter without the oil, so you can't just run it dry.

The oil will quickly coat and damage the hotwire MAF sensor, even tho it has a high heat self-clean routine...

expect drastically reduced MAF life (not a cheap part), for absolutely NO benefit.

otherwise, if you still want to fit this, make sure you can fit a dry-type element filter, and leave oil out of the equation.

[krysRAW = AROCA-Vic PR =]

most washable K&N type filter require filter oil. They do not filter without the oil, so you can't just run it dry.

The oil will quickly coat and damage the hotwire MAF sensor, even tho it has a high heat self-clean routine...

expect drastically reduced MAF life (not a cheap part), for absolutely NO benefit.

otherwise, if you still want to fit this, make sure you can fit a dry-type element filter, and leave oil out of the equation.

Thanks for the reply Wankski. Was just wondering if you're speaking from personal experience? I came across this documentation in regards to your feedback:

http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/massair.htm

Thoughts?

[colcol]

The K & N Filter would cost about $200, landed here, the last time i purchased a standard air cleaner in Australia, it was $32, most likely cheaper from EB Spares, the K & N is 6 times the price, and you have to buy the special oil and cleaner for it, changing of the air cleaner is a fiddly job, a K & N filter would make it fiddly and dirty as well, and the risk of damaging a Mass Air Flow Meter, as Joe said, they are not cheap to replace, and i have heard the M.A.F. can also get damaged, if the car drives into a flood, as the pickup for the air cleaner is low at the front, and it sucks water up the spout, Colin.

[bix]

I've had the Novitec airbox (such as this one: http://shop.alfisti.net/Tuning-Styling/Alfa-156/Motor-Airfilters/Novitec-Maxxair-Intake-System::1245.html) with cold air intake in my car for over 12 months. As far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong Wankski), it doesn't require oiling the filter and I haven't had any MAF issues thus far. Don't know if it gives extra HP (where is the AROCA dyno day this year??), but it sure sounds a treat!

[colcol]

As far as i can makeout the 156 range has the same air cleaner assembly, would be unrestricted for a 1600cc 156, for a 3000cc  V-6, 156, it might restrict a bit, Dyno day is next year, we run it every 2nd year to ensure good numbers and its something to look forward to, important to pickup cold air, as you can cram more cold air in, than hot air, standard setup picks up cold air from under car, along with dirt, mud leaves and water to Hydraulic your engine when your car meets a flooded road, better to pick up air between the bonnet and grille, good high pressure zone, if possible, check out under the bonnet of a V-8 Supercar, lot of time and money spent ramming in cold air, to sqeeze more power, for a K+N oil filter, i could buy 6 standard air cleaner elements, Colin.

[Cool Jesus]

I've always used sports air filters with a pipercross in my 159 and a K&N in my Spider currently. Never paid the dollars being quoted above though, both between the $50~$100. I can see how over oiling the filters can be an issue with clogging up the MAF sensors with eventual build up of dust and other particles which may get past the filtering barrier. BIX, is your filter a throw away unit? If not, I'd be very surprised if it doesn't require oiling. These filters normally ship pre-oiled, which many buyers mistakenly believe that the filter hasn't been oiled and then over load them by spray further oil on them, BIX I'd say yours is already oiled, it just doesnt seem it. They just need that thin skin of oil through out for the airbourne nasties to find themselves stuck in the filter as they try to navigate through the cotton weave. The oil is coloured to give a visual indication of coverage, just clean and reoil at regular service intervals for normal road use. Dirt roads, etc you would clean more regularly as particles would begin to clog the filter, as it would with Col's 6 standard filters.

Not sure what Alfa filters are worth, however I used to own a Jeep Grand Cherokee and the standard filter was half the cost of a K&N, so that was a no brainer for me, considering the sport filters have a life time reuse. I tested this SUV's pressure throughout the air intake with a manometer and the air filter restriction was negligable. There was more restriction in the standard ducting which I changed, rerouted and enlarged the intake for more ram force from the front of the car. Made a noticable difference to throttle and transmission response.

As Col correctly points out, its cold air intake for a reason, I just shake my head everytime I see these filters plonked directly into the engine bay with no form of separation between engine bay temp and outside pick up, actually that Novitec appears to be directly above the exhaust manifold? WTF, I'd seriously look at makeing an effort to rerouting it, actually that would be a good post for someone to take on. You need to locate the pick up, again as Col mentioned, at a high pressure location to take advantage of ram air, normally at the front of the car and duct that air with reasonable sized ducting to the filter which should be isolated from engine bay temperatures. The reason for this is the principle of equilirium, where the high pressure (outside) will rush into the low pressure (being created inside the air intake) to equalise the air pressure, which equates to less effort required by the engine to suck that air and using that 'gain hp' elsewhere. As Col mentioned, you also get more air density if the air is colder, hence more oxygen, hence more efficient bang.

Due to the random network of sponge, cotton weave etc. and the use of the sticky oil, enables the filter to have larger pores for air to pass through. Logically this reduces pressure and gives more free flow, however the air filter is not normally the area of the air intack system that causes flow restriction. It would give some minor power increase, but it would at least give noticeable throttle response. If anything, as BIX mentioned, it gives a great sound to the intake on WOT.

krysRAW, I'd give you the thumbs up on the filter, I've been running one on my 159 for over 2 years now, no issue at all. Just don't ver oil it. When you get the item notice how much oil is on the filter. An ECU reset would speed up any benefets gained from the filter.

[krysRAW = AROCA-Vic PR =]

COOL JESUS! THANK YOU!!

I've valued everyone's feedback/opinions regarding the K&N cold induction kit, but Cool Jesus is actually the first person to actually answer my question regarding effects to ECU that I had originally asked about! 

I have no problems installing and using this kit as I've had these installed in previous vehicles with no problems what's so ever and I've had experience regarding the maintenance of the filters so not put off by that, plus the MAF sensor concern I believe is speculative and there has actually been no proven cases, studies and testing that proves the concern to be true.

Cool Jesus (or Hey Zeus to our friends in Mexico), inregards to ECU reset, is that something I can do myself, or do I have to go to an autoelec to get that done?

[Cool Jesus]

Its a DIY procedure, just make sure you research the subject. I'd hate to think that I set someone off on a path to brick their pride and joy. Not that this woiuld be possible for this procedure, but car computers make me nervous. Make absolutely sure that your confident that its right for your application. Here's a couple of links that discuss the DIY methods. Make sure you post on it for a more home grown review on the subject.

http://forum.alfa156.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10706&PN=1
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-147-156-and-gt/201163-ecu-reset-its-a-miracle-cure.html

There's a short write up on this forum, ( http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=1559.0 ) but I think the author has misread the procedure and states to start the car with the throttle, when I think it should read 'without the throttle'. Anyhow do a short right up on the subject for the benefit of our forum with some before and after results. Perhaps others could then add their ECU reset experiences to the thread to gauge whether its worth while or not.

PS. Just had a thought about the prices quoted by Col, I'd say he's talking about complete Cold Air systems, rather than just the filter element, which is what I normally purchase.

[krysRAW = AROCA-Vic PR =]

Thanks for the tips Cool Jesus, will definitely check it out.

So the idea of the ECU reset is to recalibrate engine dynamics to having the new filter, correct?

[Cool Jesus]

Yeah, its been part of ecu technology for many years, its not an Alfa exclusive. There are adaptive parameters, readings and inputs taken by the ecu of the drivers driving habits and it calibrates the best engine responses for the style of driving. At the moment your car is acustomed to your driving style with its as is equipement. You then add a modification (such as the filter) the ecu then learns that there is a change and slowly recalibrates itself for best response and performance. The reset just brings everything back to square one and starts off calibrating from the begining with your inputs including the new modifications. In a way, you personalise the car to your driving style. It then just makes minor adjustments as time goes by with normal wear and tear. Just thinking about here, it wouldn't hurt to give your beast a full service before the reset, wouldn't surprise me if the car feels and responds noticably better.

If you do a general search on ecu resets you'll see everyones amazement at the change with various marques of vehicles. To be honest I think we may sometimes imagine or convince ourselves of the changes. So if you do it, try to be objective in assessing any improvement or degredation in performance. ie. you should run the car over a set course with a good WOT straight, some turns, some cruising etc... then do the same run with the changes and see if there is a difference once reset. As an added test, do a run with the new filter and no reset. remember that after the reset you need to settle the car into your driving style first.

I remember with the jeep, the recalibration never commenced until the engine reach operating temp and it took a number of these engine starts. My daughters Ford KA needed a 50km drive from memory. I've yet to come across any literature on when the recalibration has occured and taken affect on Alfas. The link suggests a fairly immediate recalibration.

[krysRAW = AROCA-Vic PR =]

Thanks again Cool Jesus for all the tips and back ground on the topic

Another question: just remembered that my 156 has an under engine cover. Would it be bad for me to remove this and operate the vehicle without it, as it kind of makes the purpose of the cold air induction kit moot if the ram pod can't access air coming from underneath the car

If it is better to keep the under engine cover, I was thinking of altering it then so to some how allow air traveling underneath to be forced towards the induction point.

[Cool Jesus]

Krys, removing the stone guard isn't an item on the 'don't do list' so it won't be a bad thing. However, as its name suggests, its a stone guard/shield to give some protection from flying debris against the underside of the engine, it also gives a little protection from water being splashed up into the engine bay. The filter will getb air no matter where its placed, the question is where is being placed?

Actually, I've just deleted a long explanation of the pros and cons of the filters location per K&N instructions, mate I'll cut to the chase and just say that the way K&N have it set up is really bad. I was coming up with more cons than pros, such as heat off the road, debris and water off the road, little to no ram air.  You'd be better of buying the K&N replacement filter E-9244 for your current air box (less than half the cost of the kit) and if required modify the Alfa intake pipes to better access air from the front. Going off my 98 spider, the intake air piping is massive as it is from Alfa, yet to have a proper look at the actual intake mouth which seems to be hidden behind the headlights somewhere. I'll be modifying mine to pick up from the front of the car. The idea with the piping is to keep its cross sectional area as large as possible along its entire length. As I mentioned above I used 75mm PVC plumbing pipe on my Jeep to increase cross section area for better travel of the air from the very front to the throttle plate, having cut up the air box to allow for two intake pipes into it.

There's too many cons for the location being proposed by K&N, as I think Col mentioned, water puddles and the like may cause an issue, and the amount of debris being picked up down there would concern me aswell, as it is they supply a sock for the filter. Socks are generally used by off-roaders, so K&N are being cautious there.

If however you've already parted with cash for that item, keep the tray in place, perhaps a small modification on the tray as you mentioned to direct air to the filter. They should be plastic so with a heat gun, just form a bubble near the filter location and form a vent/scoop, as long as outside air is being directed up to it that should be sufficient.  I would also see if you can pipe air from the front of the car to the filter (that's where the ram air is), flexible ducting works.

[Cool Jesus]

To save my two typing fingers, I'm really only splurging out what researching I've come across in the past. I've found this online tech site very helpful in the past and its where I've gleened a lot of knowledge with all of my vehicel modifications. The link will take you to one of many intake articles where many of the authors speak with experience and/or test results, so no snotty nosed kids on the rice burner forums trying to make a fully hectic air intake system mate

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Into-the-Intake-Part-1/A_1361/article.html

The website has a search field which is handy, if you use broad search terms such as 'intake' or 'ECU' you'll have better results in locating the right article.

[wankski]

normally, I'd let this thread run, but i feel like tossing a grenade in it and walking away...

everything about this thread makes baby jesus cry.

having said that, I'll promulgate my view and leave:

1) JTS engine has enough concerns without adding on tacky K&N intakes. K&N relies on selling $200+ aftermarket kits that cost them $0.50 to make in all its blow-molded glory. The marketers will suggest power gains and all sorts of R&D for your car that simply does not exist and does not happen. The fact they have not been successfully sued does not mitigate against the fact it's a piece of junk.

2) The stock airbox and filter ought be retained in any road going car: stock filtration level is specified by the manufacturer to ensure particulate matter is not ingested, particularly silca-based compounds (sand) that will wear steel rings and liners rather easily. Filters have a linear relationship - they either have small pores and filter well or they do not. You cannot specify greater filtration or on par with oem spec and at the same time advertise greater air flow. Logic error.

3) If you must mod the intake - the most reasonable thing that one can do to an intake is this: remove stock snorkel to stock airbox and replace with GTA snorkel.
http://www.maltapark.com/item.asp?itemid=1466375

the gta snorkel is a fair bit bigger than the 2.0 and 2.5 item

You can get a sport washable filter if you must here (dry type), and avoid any oil issues by simply omitting it altogether:
http://www.autodeltashop.com/product_info.php?products_id=157

this is how a hotwire maf actually works: the wire is heated to a moderate temp and the air cooling it causes voltage to be measured at it's brought back to temp.... this is how the computer accurately measures oxygen density... the wire self-cleans by superheating the wire and turning it red hot to cook off any contamination. CONTAMINATION is expected and built into the MAF by bosch. this is fact. Oil is carried in a filter and ALL liquids evaporate. THIS IS FACT. (hence directions in filter oils to dry before fitment - guess what it's doing? - and will continue to do?) The wire must be perfectly clean to do it's job, and the depositing of residue in vapour form on the wire when the car is switched off, post self-clean, is enough to put me off.

simply google 'MAF + K&N' and see how many people went through MAFs while they were running oiled filters and read the response K&N gave: basically 'go jump'...

4) There are better things to spend time and money on with a JTS than this - like getting on top of the carbon and oil issues before it's a real problem - it's well documented online.

http://forum.alfa156.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37964&PN=1