Is the 159 chassis an advance from 156?

[TFJ100]

Hi All,

I am thinking about the future and upgrading to an Alfa GT (from a 2001 GTV V6). I have driven a GT and liked it, albeit it is still a front-wheel drive 2000s Alfa chassis...we are not talking neutral RWD handling here.

I have considered a Brera but it is unlikely because the GT can hold 3 kiddies which is something I need.

Unfortunately I haven't had the time to drive a 159/Brera, and may not find the time before I make my purchase.

However, I'm curious if anybody has experience between the 159/Brera chassis and the 156/GT chassis. Did it improve much from one generation to the next or is it much of a muchness?

Blogs suggest the Brera generally disappointed Alfa-owners - does anyone who has owned or driven both want to argue the Brera case?

Thanks
Torben

[shiny_car]

There is a difference.

I used to have a TS 156, and currently have a V6 GT. I also have a 155, the platform prior; and also a 159Ti V6, which my wife mostly drives. Each generation is definitely a step upwards.

The GT is not bad. And it's a nice chuckable car. However, out of the box, the standard diff does make it prone to understeer, torque steer, and scrabble for grip. The standard suspension is crashy, and of course only gets worse as the km's increase and the shocks wear.

However, these can be fixed, but only if you're prepared to spend some $$. The Q2 Torsen diff transforms the handling, and great improves reliability (the standard diff is not a matter of 'if', but 'when' it will blow; well documented, particularly with GTAs). Budget around $1500, fitted. With suspension, a set of KONI FSD or KONI Sport or Bilstein B6 dampers will greatly improve comfort and handling, esp with Eibach Pro Kit springs. Shocks will be around $1200 a set plus fitment; springs around $400 plus fitment; if you do both at the same time, you pay the labour only once, because it's the same process. $2K should have all of it supplied and fitted.

The 159Ti is excellent from the factory. Despite 235/40R19 tyres, I think it has great ride comfort (superior to the GT). Nice stiff, refined chassis, and really good damping/shocks. I haven't really driven the other 159s, so it depends what model you're after. Non-Ti cars have higher profile tyres, so I expect comfort to be even better. The car is generally more comfortable, more refined.

Acceleration-wise, the GT blows any 159 into the weeds IMO. And because it's a more challenging car to drive, it's also more rewarding. And the sound...can't beat it!

Maintenance-wise, the Achilles heal of the Arese V6 in the GT is the cambelt; every 3 yr or 60K km (whichever is first) is recommended. In a 159Ti, the 19" tyres are the main cost issue. Imported, you'll get away with A$1600 a set of 4; bought locally, around $2800 a set of 4.

[TFJ100]

Thanks Shiny - you and I seem to be cut from the same cloth, so your advice seems particularly appropriate.

My GTV has the new diff, Koni adjustable shocks...can't remember what springs I upgraded with.

I do value the sound of the GT (3.2 seems even better than my 3.0), and the ride comfort of the one I drove was quite a bit better than my GTV, so that would be good enough for me.

The cam belt cost is an issue - I am driving 2,000km pa right now, so a new cambelt every 6,000km is not helpful. I have stretched my timeframe out a little supported by inspections to make sure it is ok.

I do see the cost of GTs on carsales as a bit pricey...I can buy a 2010 BMW 135i coupe with 306hp and lots of toys for $45k - so $30k for a 2008 GT with moderate kms on the clock and an appetite for cam belts seems a bit rich. I presume this explains why they sit around so long before selling.

Torben

[shiny_car]

My GTV has the new diff, Koni adjustable shocks...can't remember what springs I upgraded with.

Sounds nice. You shouldn't have trouble selling it.

The cam belt cost is an issue - I am driving 2,000km pa right now, so a new cambelt every 6,000km is not helpful.

Ha! My belt reached its 3 yr mark in August, just gone. But I've travelled about 6K km in that time too!  I will get it done before the end of the year, but yes, it kinda hurts. Mind you, this time I won't be changing the water pump, tensioner, or idlers, which were all done 3 yrs ago.

I do see the cost of GTs on carsales as a bit pricey...I can buy a 2010 BMW 135i coupe

STOP right there... 

[Meng]

Agree with Shiny.

159 chassis is stiff, if on the heavy side.  I ported in a new suspension setup, it's a noticeable improvement but not massive by any stretch of the imagination (i.e it's pretty sorted out remaining stock).  IMO out of the box it's a more refined drive than the GT (at least the stock V6 I drove), and it's more practical (hence why I went with the 159 rather than the GT).  Sound-wise, the 159 can't compete with the GT, but the way Alfa is going, unless you own an 8C, nothing will ever sound as meaty as the GT/GTAs...

Brera/159 are great looking cars, but IMO were never supposed to be sports saloons/coupes...

[twistybits]

Torben, Sounds like you are in a similar position that I was in a few months ago. I was looking for a car that I could use as a daily driver that could also accommodate children in the back for shorter trips. This was never going to be the primary family car and was likely to rack up no more than 5000k's p.a so I could afford to forgo a few practicalities. I had driven a few 159's in various disguises and whilst they felt really solid they all felt really heavy and lacked the driver appeal I was hoping for. I drove a number of GT's and was pretty impressed. Loved the styling, space and the aesthetics of the car really did it for me. I then drove a 147GTA and it was all over. Decision was made after the first drive. I acknowledge that the GT would be a little more practical but my 2 little ones fit really comfortably in the back of the 147 GTA and they both sit in booster seats which in themselves take up a bit of room. In hindsight the 156GTA would be an even better practical proposition but hey life's too short to worry about practicalities too much
IMHO, I think the 159 is a better suited vehicle higher if you were clocking up a lot more kms and required the creature comforts, otherwise enjoy the thrills of a GT or GTA. I couldn't be happier!
Below is a link to really clean GT that I seriously considered. Unfortunately it hasn't as yet had a Q2 fitted but is otherwise a really nice car being sold by a nice guy (no affiliation) that is well priced.
http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/alfa-romeo-gt-2004-12979182

Good luck.

[mrt]

I bought the 159 TB Ti. I do about 20k a year, all on Sydney roads (i.e. bumpy and uneven), and i find the car very comfy despite 19" wheels, seats are superb (and heated!!!). The engine is a bit underpowered for aggresive driving, but it has plenty of pull for normal/sligthly sporty driving. Steering is excellent for a front driver (i hate front drivers).

I use it as an every day car, plenty of room for whole family.  Apart from early issues (see my previous posts) i had no trouble with the car. The only complaint is that the nose is soooo long that getting out of my driveway i tend to scrape the bottom a bit.

Oh, and tires are impossible to find. I had to get Continentals instead (but they seem fine to me, and are a bit cheaper).

[TFJ100]

hi Twisty,

Thanks for the feedback. I did follow your posts as you were making your decision...can you advise what you think the differences were that made you make your decision so quickly?

My perception of the 147 GTA is that it is a bit more boy-racer, and it doesn't feel like it will be much of an upgrade from my GTV 3.0, which is quite raw. The GT is a bit more luxurious to drive and given my type of driving (drive 20km to and from work once a week plus a country run once a quarter), I think it would be ok. Maybe Shiny's advice regarding upgraded springs and shocks would bring the GT onto a level playing field with the 147. If I can find some time to drive the 147GTA, 156GTA, 159/Brera and then go back to a GT I can make my decision - I'll need to find a spare day!

On another note I did drive a Giulietta QV about 6 months ago and was pretty disappointed...weedy engine compared to a V6...

Finally, thanks for the lead on the GT for sale - it does look that with your recommendation, it is a cut above the others.

My criteria for a GT is: nice car + cambelt + later model 18" finned wheels + Q2. Any car that has those things is $6k cheaper than one that doesn't. The one you suggest has the cambelt but needs the other items. On the other hand, it is great to have the benefit of someone else's research! I also like to look out for a seller that is keen to sell (as per here), because I am not that fussy about when I buy. So I will try and find time to drive it. This is also one I had my eye on:

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/alfa-romeo-gt-2005-12915502

I go up to Queensland quite a bit and may check on whether it is still for sale.

[wankski]

to answer the OP, is depends what you call an advance:

1) driving dynamics
or
2) NVH.

1) typo 932 chassis (156) clear winner hands down. The typo 939 (159) chassis got real big and heavy and blunted road performance. Once the 932 was equipped with a q2 where available (all arese v6) it's very much game over. While not a chassis component, the early engines, are a bit dissapointing... to much mass to move, & doesn't make the right sounds. too big, too heavy, too luxo barge.. hello oversteer.

2) NVH, goes to the typo 939. To some extent the fixed the short lived wishbones and clunkiness of the whole suspension system, which to be fair, on the typo 932 is almost comically bad. First time the car 'crashed' on a smallish pothole, i thought i broke something. The suspension has been further improved in the latest models. However, if you're piloting a weekender, and not a daily, and most of all if you are a true alfa nut looking for the sounds, smells, and driving rewards - you won't care by the non-compliant and clunky set-up.

HTHs

v6 GT or any GTA is a very good choice indeed. They simply won't make another arese ever again. A true chapter in autotmotive history. cambelt costs be damned, the v6 arrangement is actually pretty robust.

[twistybits]

v6 GT or any GTA is a very good choice indeed. They simply won't make another arese ever again. A true chapter in autotmotive history. cambelt costs be damned, the v6 arrangement is actually pretty robust.
+1
Sometimes it's hard to pin point what it is about a car that "just does it for you and feels right". But the first 147 GTA I drove (which was well looked after) felt a little more taught, more responsive than anything I had driven in the month prior. I really liked the extra height in the cabin for head clearance which I thought would come in handy if I choose to do some track work at some point.
I also found that the 147 GTA typically presented better buying than the GT with a greater percentage of cars for sale already fitted with a Q2 and other nice upgrades. This might be because the 147 GTA probably does attract a 'boy racer' buyer that was more in tune with improving these cars?
I have never driven a 3.0 GTV but you might be right saying it "doesn't feel like it will be much of an upgrade". I do find the car very comfortable and too be honest, IMO, the seats in the GTA felt a little nicer than the GT.
If you are in no rush to buy a car take your time and get a feel for what "rocks your socks". Having time on your side will no doubt result is picking up a great buy. Be patient as it really is a buyers market. Part of the fun of car ownership is surely the hunt........................so enjoy this stage.
Everyone is different and each to their own, but the one common 'sweet' factor here is the sound of a magnificent 3.2L V6!
You might also like to look at this. It has been advertised for a while and when I looked at it, I thought it was overpriced. It keeps coming down in price and is closer to home than QLD.
http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/alfa-romeo-gt-2004-12961909?base=1216&vertical=Car&cr=3&eapi=2&__N=1246+1247+1252+1282+4294967249+4294967229+903+1216&num=15&silo=Stock&sort=default