Alfa 147 twinspark 2.0 manual seizing up

[Philthy82]

Hi all,

First time poster, so I hope this isn't a stupid question. I have a 2005 147 twinspark 2.0 manual with 75,000 on it, and on the way to work today it started doing some scary stuff. The "motor control system failure" light came up as soon as I started the engine, which happens occasionally and my mechanic previously advised me can be caused by sensor issues typical to 147s. But once on my way I found if I put the pedal down more than, say, halfway, the engine would stop accelarating, and if I kept pressing down it would heave and jump like it was about to stall out. Seemed to calm down after 10 mins or so and I was able to get to work fine. I'm feeding it premium unleaded petrol and Selenia 10W60 oil (topped up a week ago) so nothing maintenance-wise comes to mind.

Any idea what this might be? I'll be booking it in with my mechanic this week, just wondering if it's serious enough that I shouldn't drive anymore until it gets looked at.

Thanks all.

[colcol]

Take it to an Alfa Romeo specialist, look on the website page for Alfa Romeo service providers, they should have the Alfa Examiner, that will pinpoint the trouble, i would have it transported there, as it may stop when going through an intersection, or stop and will get hit up the rear, Colin.

[Steve S]

It's going to have logged some fault codes. Checking them is what you should do first. It could be an easy fix, maybe the AFM.

[Cool Jesus]

Philthy, it really sounds like your 147 has gone into limp mode? Where the computer restricts the engines performance to only allow saferestricted use.

It may very well be a dodgy sensor or worse, so as far as driving, i would minimise this if at all avoid it.
Your mechanic says its a typical 147 sensor 'thing', what's this opinion based on? Does he service Alfa's, does he have Alfa experience? Not that this should matter any mechanic worth their salt should be able to work on any vehicle. They must teach them in mechanics 101 to never admit defeat? I've yet to even hear about a mechanic that has shrugged his shoulders and said "I dont know". Its easier to blame the marque. I don't mean to sound critical of your emchanic, it just seems to be a ery common theme amongst other forum members and their mechanic.

Sensors do have issues, especially when they sense parametres outside safe ranges, the engine management then takes action and reports them to you, logs the fault and if you don't listen most ECU's take control and force the vehcile to only function at a minimum to protect itself from further or worse damage. I had a quick look for 147 recalls and TSBs and found no 'typical sensor issues' (it was a real quick look mind you). Your post has been up a couple of days too, no typical issues seem to be coming up from other 147 owners.

Your mechanic needs to do a diagnostic at the very least. He probably hasn't the right reader at his shop, which is normal they are expensive and most clients will have the usuall Ford, Holden and Jap marques coming in. As the other guys have mentioned, in this instance I would give serious thought to seeing an Alfa specialist, just for peace of mind.

Hopefully its nothing serious mate. Let us know, we can then start documenting these 'sensor issues' 

[Cool Jesus]

Philthy, here's another similar thread on this forum
http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=9309.msg58189#new

Actually mate, type in motor system in the search field above and you'll find a whole bunch of threads on the matter that may give you some insight on where to go from here.

[colcol]

I looked up Alfa Romeo recalls about 6 months ago and the 147 was recalled in Australia for faulty ...... sensors no, but a batch of tyres were crazing, and had to be checked, so much for all Alfa Romeo's and bad electrical systems, Phitlhy, just take it to an Alfa Specialist to avoid further damage, they have seen it all before, and know where to get the parts and how to replace it, Colin.

[Cool Jesus]

Philthy try this page on Alfaowner, sound like it will be right up your alley

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-147-156-and-gt/232563-jtd-jtdm-mcsf-and-other-problems-fix.html

On another note, what condition is your battery in? Have come across an issue with poor battery condition setting off sensors and causing faults.

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Philthy try this page on Alfaowner, sound like it will be right up your alley

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-147-156-and-gt/232563-jtd-jtdm-mcsf-and-other-problems-fix.html

On another note, what condition is your battery in? Have come across an issue with poor battery condition setting off sensors and causing faults.

What does a thread about problems with diesels have to do with the original posters petrol engined car? 

[Cool Jesus]

Mr Hyde, did you glance the name of the link only or did you have a look at the actual page?
Its not that its diesel or petrol, its the systems, symptoms and sensors that are (could be) similar. They're talking about the 'motor control system failure', both have EGRs, both have MAF sensors, crankshafts, camshafts, thermostats and this is only on the starting post. There's six pages of responses which may reveal an answer.
Apart from glow plugs, fuel and sounding like a truck, have I really missed the mark on this one?

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Mr Hyde, did you glance the name of the link only or did you have a look at the actual page?
Its not that its diesel or petrol, its the systems, symptoms and sensors that are (could be) similar. They're talking about the 'motor control system failure', both have EGRs, both have MAF sensors, crankshafts, camshafts, thermostats and this is only on the starting post. There's six pages of responses which may reveal an answer.
Apart from glow plugs, fuel and sounding like a truck, have I really missed the mark on this one?

I skimmed the first two and the last pages, and mostly I saw in the discussion was EGR, turbo, intercooler, map sensor.  None of which applies to the OP's car.  The only mention of crankshafts or camshafts I see is in reference to the sensors for those, where it states that a faulty cam sensor will cause the engine not to start.  Not the case with the OP's car, they will run quite cheerfully with no cam sensor, although they will throw a light.  Yes, a crank angle sensor will cause it not to start/cut out, but as far as I gather the OP's car seems to be running (although poorly when cold).  A faulty thermostat won't cause a loss of power, and very rarely a MCSF, so also irrelevant.

Not to mention the diesels run a different management computer, probably programmed by a different bunch of programmers, and most likely with different failure routines programmed into them - after all, what may be safe for a petrol engine could well be a disaster for a turbo diesel...

The only thing which has any real relevance to the original poster is the comments about the MAF (AFM), but whether the test described in the first post will actually work on the OP's car, I really don't know.

For what it's worth, for a guess from a great distance and reading between the lines a little, the OP's problem is about a 99% chance to be a faulty AFM (MAF), but by the same token, it is extremely unlikely to have anything to do with the MCSF message, unless it has gone open circuit.  In which case it wouldn't have gotten better as it warmed up.  The symptom of gaining no further acceleration past a given amount of accelerator pedal when cold, then really dying and/or popping out the intake if using considerably more pedal than that point, but gradually returning to 'normal' operation as the car warms up is typical of an AFM - in the twinspark and JTS powered 156/147/GTV/Spider.

[Philthy82]

Wow, thanks for the replies! Very useful info even if I don't understand all of it.

I've booked it in at my mechanic for this afternoon, it's not an Alfa service centre but he's been servicing my car for me and the previous owner for years. Asked what code scanner he had and he said it's one that works for Alfas, Fiats, Mercedes, other brands... So I'm thinking if the code scanner turns up nothing useful I shouldn't be out any money and I'll take it to an Alfa service centre to get codes read again.

Any advice on what sort of information I should expect back from a code reading to know it's the right type of scanner?

Cheers all and will hopefully have an idea what the issue is soon.

[colcol]

If your car has a fault, [and it does], then the scanner should tell you the current fault and any faults that have cropped up, an Alfa specialist will most likely know the problem before using a scanner as they work on these cars all the time, and they know how to locate and remove sensors, etc and where to buy them, Colin.

[Philthy82]

Well, after my 147 went into limp mode last friday (wouldn't let the engine rev over 3000) I took it to an Alfa dealer today, and they've told me the timing belt is loose and will cost ~$1200 to replace the timing belt kit. More expensive than I had feared really.

They also mentioned something about a face sensor (might have my wording wrong here), and that they'd see if that needed replacing and I'd be up another $420 to replace that if so. Said the face sensor impacts on the wear and tear of the timing belt. I asked them to proceed with timing belt replacement and let me know before doing anything to the face sensor. Any advice on if the face sensor is actually worth forking out this sort of money for?

As always, thanks for any advice.

[colcol]

If your timing belt is loose, and you haven't damaged your engine, then count your lucky stars, anytime you have a cambelt issue, it usually involves a ruined engine, $1200 sounds about right for a Authorised Alfa Romeo Dealer cambelt and cambelt tensioner change, the independants would be a bit cheaper, if its the second cam belt change, then the water pump should be changed as well, a crank sensor on these start to cause trouble at about 100,000kls, they fail when the car warms up, and when it cools down they work again, it could also be a MAF, [Mass Air Flow Sensor], that monitors how much air is going in the engine, if they say its faulty, then replace it now, as opposed to when it fails on the way to work on a rainy day, Colin.

[Cool Jesus]

Wow philthy, that was lucky. That sounds like a standard price for the cam belt replacement though, had mine done for same money on the spider. I was more concerned about the ramifications of a belt not having been changed for 7 years and 80 thou k's that I just had the Alfa shop replace it as soon as I bought the car. Could have done it myself over a weekend for a third of the cost, but no time and needed the car on the road...

Not sure what sensor is being looked at, ask them more questions before they talk you into replacing one of your wipers for $70... You'll find that whilst the front of the engine is appart, its an opportune time to replace all those little less accessable items, this sensor may be just that or its something that is accessable regardless and you can organise its replcement later. But again, what's the sensor? I'd listen to Col, I'm sure he speaks from experience .