Roll cage

[alfagtv58]

Is it possible to get a roll cage into a 105 Coupe and still retain use of the back seat?

Discuss.....

[AikenDrum105]

A few of us were talking recently about just that in a Giulia Super -   The consensus reached based on overheard snippets and half-remembered conversations   was if you fitted a permanent cage to the rear of your car - you had to re-register it as a 2 seater !   

I'd been eyeing off something along the lines of the AlfaHolics removable cage (removable at least for the front) .

I found some interesting info here from vicroads:  http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/0AFA9B78-2A61-4E9C-8834-7986BD42C92A/0/VSI28January2000Superseded.pdf

A quick summary is this bit:

The bar or cage must be shaped and sized to fit as close as possible to the internal profile of the car's occupant compartment.

Transverse and diagonal members must not be located between a point immediately above the rearmost part of the back of the front seats and a point as close to the windscreen header rail as it is possible to locate a transverse member, (see figure la); longitudinal members must not be located directly above an area extending 140 mm either side of the longitudinal centerline of a seat, (see figure lb).

The bar or cage must not cause undue obstruction to entry to or exit from any seat in the vehicle or encroach significantly into the occupant space for the driver or passenger(s); no part may pass through or across the opening of a door giving access to a seating position, except in the following spaces viewed from the side of the vehicle:-

(1) within 25 mm of the top and upper forward part of the door opening;

Cii) within 150 mm of the foremost part of the front of the door opening;

(iii) below the height of the seat cushions with nobody in the seat;

Civ) rearward of the foremost edge of the seat back, with the seat in its rearmost position of adjustment and the seat back adjusted to a normal driving or riding position; (see figure 2).

I think the coupes are tight enough in the back already - the frame as it is encroaches on some of those measurements I think    The Super seems much bigger to look at - doesn't really feel that way in practice    


And this stuff which mentions the change of registration:

If the roll bar or cage or a modified seat belt installation encroaches into the occupant space for rear seat passengers, the rear seats and seat belts should be removed from the car and the registration description changed to the new reduced seating capacity. If there is a reason of sufficient importance to justify the rear seats remaining m t ie vehicle in such circumstances, the vehicle's registration must be converted to 'conditional registration", the condition to be applied being that no occupants be carried in the affected seats; it would then be an offence to use the vehicle on roads with occupants in these seats.

Interestingly though - as long as you follow the guidelines in the document - you don't have to engineer it - which makes it significantly cheaper.

Could you get 30mm bars in the back of a coupe,  with foam padding and not encroach on the passenger area ?   

[alfagtv58]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply!

Could you get 30mm bars in the back of a coupe,  with foam padding and not encroach on the passenger area ?    

Or....could you make the basic 4 (or 6?) point (running along roof line) permanent without encroaching and any extra transverse and diagonal bracing removable?

CAMS regs on roll cages here (1.7mb file)
http://www.camsmanual.com.au/pdf/10_gen_req/GQ11_Schedule_J_2012-2.pdf

[AikenDrum105]

It's all really interesting to me at the moment - Hoping to do some club sprints in the Super soon - and I use the car as a daily ..  be happier all-round with a cage in for extra safety on the track and the road,  without denting my scone when I'm not using a helmet...

That cams sheet is really comprehensive - great stuff.

So the cams regs put the min tube dimensions up further - Main hoops and Laterals  44.45 x 2.5  or 50 x 2 mm,  others 38 x 2.5  or 40 x 2 mm   

There's a catch in there too about having not more than 4 removable connections in the basic structure at the roof level...    so that's 2 for the diagonals at the top (you need two to run with a passenger)  - and maybe 2 for the transversal across the top of the windscreen ?   

So in the rear of the coupe - is it just the back stays for the main hoop you have to pad and keep clear of the windows ?

[Polyal]

You guys put human beings in the back of these things?

[LaStregaNera]

Wouldn't even consider putting someone in the back - if you make it even remotely safe for the back seaters then the cage will be so compromised it's pointless - added to that if the backstays follow the roof, the cage is non compliant for CAMS/AASA. This goes for caged sedans aswell as coupes. Cage (even padded) + unprotected head is not a good thing in even fairly mild impacts...

[alfagtv58]

added to that if the backstays follow the roof, the cage is non compliant for CAMS/AASA.

Really?  Where does it say that?  I'm not doubting what you say, but I'm questioning my interpretation of the regs as I didnt think that at all.

[LaStregaNera]

added to that if the backstays follow the roof, the cage is non compliant for CAMS/AASA.

Really?  Where does it say that?  I'm not doubting what you say, but I'm questioning my interpretation of the regs as I didnt think that at all.

Page 8 of http://www.camsmanual.com.au/pdf/10_gen_req/GQ11_Schedule_J_2012-2.pdf

Each backstay shall be attached to the main or lateral rollbar near the roofline and near the top outer bend
on each side of the vehicle. A removable connection (subject to the limit of four above) may be used. Each
backstay must form an angle between 30° and 60° with the vertical, must run rearwards and be straight and
be as close as possible to the interior side panels of the bodyshell.

[vin sharp]

Not sure it it's still applicable under current regs, but years back the way it was done was the 2 rear stays were removeable and the main hoop had mounting brackets to the side seatbelt mounts beside your shoulder. This way the 2 rear stays could be removed to allow the little tackers in the back, while the main hoop remains in place, still with some support for road driving.