What's the best one?

[BundySean]

Hi all.

I have been getting to know the 105 coupe model "range" over the last few weeks in order to narrow down my search the the right car for me, however the different types have me a little confused.

I have worked out that perhaps the cars with the best body condition would be very desirable but the engine range 1300, 1750, 2000 junior, "senior!?" exterior and interior styling, stepnose etc seems tricky to work through.

I suppose I am asking what 105 is the best? Yes, I realise that is a bit of a stupid question... so how do each of the different types compare?
Do the different engine capacities alter the driving experience?
Are some cars more collectable/desirable/valuable/sought after (excluding the lightweight competition cars) than others?
Is one model more relaible/easier to work on than another?
Is one model more suited to a taller driver? (193cm-6'3")

I understand many of these questions are perhaps "subjective" but I am interested in owners/knowledgable persons opinions as these will still be very helpful for me to form my own.

Cheers

Sean

[pancho]

Before you spend a dollar, read everything you can - know the differences between the models, go to a few car shows and sit in as many models as possible, go for a drive in each model (if you can) and then decide - aim is of course to buy the car with the best body (in your desired shape) as that's likley the most expensive to repair correctly.

From the first to the last of the series they are somewhat different experiences - to me anyway.

[Davidm1600]

Hi Sean, glad to see you are most keen and of course it is helpful to ask plenty of questions. I don't think any of us would mind you asking, as we too over the years have probably done the same sort of thing.  Pancho is quite correct in what he recommends. 

But, and to try to help answer your various questions based on personal experience, like the areas of rust that can occur in 105s, let me try explain away some of the confusion. 

Firstly I am definitely no expert, but I have been mucking around with Alfa 105s since 1983, and have driven pretty much most examples, apart from the GTA, GTC and Montreal. My own GTV, is a '69 1750 series 1, which I have owned since 1997 and for the first 11-12 years I owned it, it was my daily driver.  It has since been parked (under cover) awaiting its turn to be restored.

Firstly, as you would be aware the 105 series covers the Giulia sedans, the Berlinas, spiders, GT/GTVs and the Monty.   

Again for the purposes of this exercise and trying not to be too subjective, which given we are talking 105 Alfas can be a difficult ask, lets keep the discussion to the GT/GTV series.  I am not going to go into too much detail re the years in which model was introduced, and/or for how long it lasted. I will give some ideas re this, but without consulting the reference books, my knowledge is not complete. Again there really are a huge range of excellent books on just the coupe models, let alone the other 105s.  I have heaps of them, but not all.  Fusi is considered one of the Alfa bibles, but it is expensive and not too easy to find copies these days.  If you want a decent list of books on 105s I can detail that later or alternatively send me a PM.

First off, 105 series motors come in the configuration of 1300, 1600, 1750 and 2000 (2L).  However, within these ranges and depending on specifically which model 105 coupe we are talking about there are some minor differences.  Next off there were models called the Junior (no such thing as a Senior), and these refer to only the 1300 and 1600.   However, the next confusing part is that there were both the 1300 GT Junior stepnose and 1300 GT Junior flushnose.  I am pretty sure there wasn't a 1600 GT Junior stepnose, but definitely a 1600 GT Junior flushnose.

Now having mentioned the differences in stepnose and flushnose, let me explain this.  The original 105 coupe was referred simply as the AR 105 Gt (1600 with twin webbers), this car was introduced I am pretty certain in 1963.  These cars now are very rare, which equates to relatively expensive if in good condition.  Thereafter introduced I think around 1966 was the GT Veloce (1600, twin webbers and I think a slightly better cam, but the main difference was inside the cabin with more supportive seats, and some minor differences to the dash).  Around the same time the 1300 GT Junior was introduced (I am pretty sure it also had twin webbers).  The only reason I mention this is that in the Giulia sedan range they also had a 1300 but it only came with a single webber.

All of these 3 early coupes are referred to as stepnose cars, and all are very desirable, generally not too easy to find these days, though they do come up, mostly as restoration projects or nicely restored cars.  If so read generally high prices.  I can go into price ranges if you wish but it would only be a general reference as so many factors affect prices and they are constantly changing. 

In 1968 the 1750 S1 was introduced, this model has a flush nose (that is the front panel is at the same height as the bonnet). This had a completely new interior (many consider the 68-69 to have the best interior but it is really a personal taste thing). Two key things re the interior of the S1 1750 GTV were the flying buttress seats, and also the introduction of the two big instruments (tach and speedo, similar in appearance to the Lamborghini Muira. 

In 1970, the Series 2 1750 GTV was introduced, it had only minor changes but these included a new front seat design, the bumpers were changed to a more square appearance and the front indicators were different. This model also saw the intro of the classic 10548 cams, which had a slightly more aggressive profile so a little more ooomph. 

The flush nose 1600 GT Junior was introduced around the same time, which in effect was a cut price 1750 S2. 

Around '73 the 2000 GTV was introduced.  Again it had a revised grill and new interior, but also saw the intro of the 2L motor, Dellortos and I think also the LSD.  There was a also a auto 2L coupe and Berlina but these were only made in small numbers and are rare today.  Having said that there are an example of both at the moment for sale on carsales.com.au !

Hopefully that clears up some of the difficulties in understanding the various 105 models. 

In terms of the body shell, one other minor change was made between the earlier and later models and that relates to the height of the swage line/rear arch. On early cars it was lower while on later cars it is higher.  It doesnt make any difference I believe to how the car behaves, it is just an appearance thing.

As I am not a mechanic, I don't wish to go into the suspension or other components of the various models, (not really sure how much things changed), suffice to say that the brakes were changed/improved from early cars to later models.  The later models 2L have dual brake circuits while earlier ones only have a single booster etc.

So to your other questions, should it make any difference in being able to get in and out of any of the models.  The simple observation I can make given I have driven early GT veloces, both 1750 GTVs, Juniors of all types and 2L GTVs is no. I am 6'1" and I don't have any trouble in fitting into any of them.  I really enjoy the driving position with the seat right back and I can say that the support given from the seats in my car is excellent. The seats in the 1750/2L cars were supposedly orthopedically designed for good lumbar support.  Early cars dont have head rests but from the into of the 1750 they do.

In answer to your question re how does the engine capacity affect how the cars feel.  From my observations, with the smaller capacity engines 1300/1600 you need to rev them more to get power, they simply don't have the torque of the 1750/2L.  Some say that the 1750 is the best or at least best compromise, but the 2L definitely has the most torque.  It comes down to what do want, are prepared to enjoy and/or how you drive.  Apart from that, the engine capacity really doesn't have too much influence as  to the handling/feel of the cars as across the range there is a strong similarity.

As to the question of collectibility/value.  In theory the earlier models, and especially in some circles, the stepnose GT Veloce is considered the most valuable.  Both GTs and Veloces can be candidates for GTA replicas, like Alfaholics and Classic Alfa in the UK make. Having said that, series 1 1750s are I think for the most considered more valuable than say series 2 1750s and/or even 2L cars.  However, in some circles the 2Ls are considered more collectible, given they were the last of the line of the coupes. 

For the most part 1600 GT Juniors (flushnose cars) are possibly the least desired, but as I say above many factors can change this. For instance I have noted that there is a 1600 GT Junior, with a 2L, fabulous restoration/GTA type clone (apart from not being a stepnose) for sale at Classic Throttle in Sydney (its on carsales) for $70K !!!!  I have never seen one of this series so expensive, certainly 1600 GT Veloce's for $50K.  Over in the UK, given all the GTA clones that are being built prices are definitely on the rise.

However, as you would have seen you still can find driver GTVs for sub $10K  but many are now in the range between $10-25K.  Condition really is paramount to the price being asked. 

My view is no, I don't believe any one model is more easy or difficult to maintain.  The good news apart from there being many decent Alfa specialists out there who service such cars, is the huge availability of parts to repair, maintain and restore these cars, both repro (eg. Alfaholics, Classic Alfa, EB Spares, Highwood Motor Co - all in the UK), IAP in the US, Milano Spares in Melbourne,  plus plenty of other places both here in Aus and overseas.  Pancho is a mine for parts for original stuff, how he finds them beats me !!! He must have contacts everywhere.  Ditto also specialists who can restore parts (eg Franjo in Slovenia) and so on.

I hope that helps a little.   

[BundySean]

Thanks pancho and David for your posts.

I think I'm getting my head around the 105's thanks to this and other helpful websites. Bring on some hands on experience too!

I am leaning towards the series 2 1750 models. I like the dash/instruments layout and the head restraints on the front seats are cool. I like the wood accents! Still the right car might just choose me, when I see it, so my mind is still well and truely open.

I am aiming for an honest and sound car suitable for regular driving with a mind to gradual improvements/restoration over time.

Can't wait!

Once again thanks to your inputs.

[twistybits]

Great responses by David & Pancho. I will chime in by supporting what Pancho says in that you really need to take one or two for a drive. My concern for you is that if you are 193cm, you might find the experiance pretty cramped. I loved my S2 1750 and missed it as soon as the lucky buyer pulled out of my driveway! I look forward to one day getting back into the fold of a 105 GTV. The 105 series is criticized for being a little 'gorilla like' in the driver ergonomic department. I'm about 178cm and always felt the driving position a little cramped. I know one prospective buyer who was around 6'2" found the driving position too difficult to deal with. I hope this isn't the case fit you?

[Davidm1600]

Thanks Sean and twisty, glad to be of a little help. Re the trying examples out, yes do this. Definitely the best way to see what they are like and if the GTV suits you. Re the size thing as noted I am 181-182 cm tall, my brother a little taller than me and neither of us find these cars driving position a problem. My brother is currently using a fiat 126/niki as a round town toy. This is small and yet no dramas. Both of us have had '69 AC 124 sports since 1980, have also driven 850 sports, x1/9 and again no dramas. All I am trying to say is that your height shouldn't be a problem, but regardless the only way you will know for certain is to drive some 105s.

[BundySean]

Hi twisty,

I have learnt so much since joining here. It is an excellent forum!

I am hopefully going to see some cars today and at least check them out in the metal rather than pics!

In a couple of weeks I am planning on going out to Kingaroy for a local event. I have been kindly offered a look and even a drive from a generous forum member. So by the end of the month I will know for certain if I will fit.

I have the long arms of a Gorilla, so I should be able to reach the wheel BUT really long legs too..... Hmmmm

Can the seat rails be extended to allow for the taller driver?

[BundySean]

Thanks Sean and twisty, glad to be of a little help. Re the trying examples out, yes do this. Definitely the best way to see what they are like and if the GTV suits you. Re the size thing as noted I am 181-182 cm tall, my brother a little taller than me and neither of us find these cars driving position a problem. My brother is currently using a fiat 126/niki as a round town toy. This is small and yet no dramas. Both of us have had '69 AC 124 sports since 1980, have also driven 850 sports, x1/9 and again no dramas. All I am trying to say is that your height shouldn't be a problem, but regardless the only way you will know for certain is to drive some 105s.

That's reassuring to know, thanks David.

I'm hoping I fit them like a glove...... I just hope my right knee doesn't hit the window winding handle.... it always seems to!!!

[cjheath]

I just hope my right knee doesn't hit the window winding handle.... it alsways seems to!!!

Loosen the grub screw, pull the handle and put it back on again in a convenient position. Check the position with the window open and closed. If it still doesn't work for you then adjust the seat back angle and slide the seat forward or back.

Also, different 105s will seem to handle radically differently depending on how the steering alignment is set up. One will be heavy, one light, one will wander, one will feel tight, one will rapidly re-center and one won't, etc. This doesn't go with the type, it's just the setup, and you can make any of them handle like any other - that goes for the sedans to. You need to check the bushes and ball joints of course though. Look at all six steering ball joints while someone is vigorously wiggling one wheel left and right. If all the ball joints are good then any play in the steering wheel will be from the steering box. Check the caster control arm bushes (forward from the top arm) - they clunk when you hit bumps - these are easily fixed but often neglected. First thing to do after you buy is to replace any worn steering bits and get a full setup done.

The Giulia 1300TI sedan usually had a single Solex, not a Weber - also the only 105 with a 5:1 diff. Really sweet car to drive, even at 80MPH.

[BundySean]

Thanks CJ,

Athough I didn't drive a 105 coupe today (I declined a generous offer from Peter and Carl to drive a warmed race preped car  ) I sat in a nice stepnose and saw a bunch of other great Alphs, plus plenty of bits!

I really learnt a lot talking to those guys. Thanks for taking a few hours out of your day to educate me.

I found the 68 ish ? stepnose lovely to sit in. Plenty of room for my 193 cm. I did note how small the car appeared overall but it felt nice inside.

I was very impressed with the engine and induction note of the engines at Peters shed. I also checked out the cars bodies for the usual rust spots and got a good sense of where to check for potential probs.

All in all a very well spent 3 hours!

Sean

Now I only have to wait two weeks until I can see Cameron's in Kingaroy!

[Silver105]

Sean,

I thought I would add some comments from someone who has more recently bought a 2ltr 105. I went through the same exercise you are going through and was originally looking for a stepnose.  Ironically when I was looking their were none around where as today I know of at least two excellent examples, one on carsales but it is $55k and another in unique Cars that has a 2 ltr dropped in it but looks good and is on club plates for $35K. In general their seems to be more for sale these days than 2 yeas ago when I was looking but these two are very much on the expensive side.

http://www.carsales.com.au/car/brand%20new/dealer/demo/private/ALFA%20ROMEO/GIULIA?eapi=2&sort=default&vertical=Car&silo=Stock&base=1216&Range=Price:Min,Max~0.5

I was always told to buy the best car I could afford and pay special attention to the body. Hence, I spent way above market for a recently restored 105 that was in exception condition, nut and bolt and what I thought was a perfect example. However, as a novice to the Alfa scene what I learned was that it would have paid to bring along someone who knows what to look for outside of the normal rust issues etc that normally is discussed on this forum. Hence, if you know someone get them to come along to view the car, especially the body and the drive of the car. if you have not recently driven many you have not much to base the feel of the car your looking at. So with all the excitement you tend to think it feels awesome when someone else will tell you about little things your not picking up.

Just in idea. As for mine, I'm looking at putting her into the shop to get her resprayed. Does she really need it, probably not but every time I go for a ride all I see are those little imperfections in the body that drive you mad so going to go the whole hog and get it done the way I like it. Hence, maybe spending up initially was a bad idea given I'm going to re-spray her but everything else is pretty much new.

If your in Victoria, make your way to Spetacollo this month 18th of November to see some good examples of 105s.

Happy hunting.

JJ

[BundySean]

Thanks Silver for your excellent suggestions, especially considering they have come from hard won experience.

I have only drived one 105 GT thanks to a forum member here!! It is tough to choose. I would love to have an experienced owner to come with me on each inspection... but alas it will probably be just me and my little "buyers guide" book!

It seams that all but one car for sale recently are either from Victoria or NSW. Perhaps all the Qld owners hang on to theirs for some reason. I am prepared to travel, it just makes it a little harder to inspect etc.

Some if anyone knows of a sound car around the traps, especially NSW/QLD let me know.

I am in Bundaberg Qld. The user name is geographical rather than indicative of my faviouite spirit!

Sean

[Takinko]

It is just my suggestion.

If you find one you are really interested, you may ask the owner to take to a local well-known mechanic for proper inspection. It may cost you a little, but most of mechanics will do professionally and give you a comprehensive report as an individual third party (what you need to replace, rust under car, behind panels usually you cannot inspect, etc), and you don't need to travel all the time and to be disappointed with wasting time and money. This is how I got my 1971 junior. I could negotiate with previous owner about the fact that I needed to repair things, and I eventually saved a lot! Especially where you live and every time you travel around Australia will cost you more (I guess majority of 105 live along the east coast). If you know some friends who know well about the car, I think it is not a problem though...

On the other hand, hunting a car you want is also one of the most exciting things. Good luck.

[MD]

My approach is at odds with all the submissions so far. I tend to presonalise my cars and so I am usually interested in a complete car but one that all the faults are visible and decernable. I dont give a rats if it runs or it doesn't as long as all the parts are there. Restoring stuff is half the fun.

Having purchased what I loosely would call a parts bin, I would then proceed to make a car that had all its visible and known faults rectified and fully finished to a high standard commensurate with my planned budget for the car.

In a fully restored 105 that you could you be proud of and was as reliable and sweet to drive as the day it was built, you would be budgeting for around $40, 000. Anything less, well it's that much less of a car as well.

My tip is to buy a rough one that is mechanically a going concern and one you could resell for the around the same price you paid for it. Drive  it around for six months. Get used to the car and its charm (or lack there of). If you really like the actual thing and not just the thought of it, find a clapped example and build the car you want. You will know exactly how good your car is and have no nagging doubts about this or that.

It's what you would call building a car from the inside out as opposed to buying a car from the outside and hoping that all is well within.

[Davidm1600]

I know where you are coming from MD, that has been the approach taken with both my GTV, which looked roughish but ok, but was mechanically reliable (especially after a little tinkering to improve the suspension) and the interior was serviceable.  Had approx 12 years great service out of it.  Hopefully when funds permit I can fully restore it and I will definitely know what I have.  With my Super, it was complete, but also a complete basket case, So rusty and so tired in all respects.   I definitely know what I have and will have when completed (when ever that might be ?).

The problem though as you would well know from experience, many while have great intentions, they may lack the $, the technical skills, experience, space and/or find it hard to maintain the energy to carry out a full restoration on a tired old dog.  Believe me, my projects have and continue to test my resiliance in this respect. I am relying on having faith they will be completed.  Hence the recommendation of others to go for the alternative route, buying the best you can afford.  All options I suspect carry a level of risk.  Perhaps it is what you can deal with in this regard that will sway the decision what exactly to purchase.