Flat Battery on a 164 this time!

[Bellbird]

Well, that flat battery issue has risen it's head again!  I know of a 164 and the battery keeps going flat every 3/4 days!  Alfa specialist and auto electrician can not find the fault.  It's not the tacho/battery connection as on my 156 can it?  Any ideas? 

Craig M where are you? You solved my battery prob - any ideas on this one?

[colcol]

Could be a faulty battery, if possible charge it up, and if it is open top type, do an electrolyte check with a hydrometer and make sure the gravity is the same in every cell, then when it goes flat, do another check to see the gravity of the cells, sometimes the plates can short out internally, if it is a sealed battery, take it to an auto electrician to do a load test to see if it has any life left in it, it may be ok normally, but when it sits for a couple of days, it doesn't have the guts to start up, is a problem for cars that are not driven regulary, Colin.

[Bellbird]

Thanks Colin.  Will do.  I knew I could rely on you to respond!  You should write down everything that you know before you die!

[festy]

If you're trying to track down the source of a current drain, an automotive current tester like this might point you in the right direction.
Providing no-one has done any dodgy wiring hacks to the car, once you identify which circuit is drawing the current a wiring diagram will narrow down the possible causes.

But as colcol said, it could just be a battery no longer holding charge.
Most battery shops (even supercheap etc) offer free battery testing, but beware that they want to sell batteries so if they won't show you the test results but tell you it's cactus, get a second opinion
The battery/alternator tester I use has a screen that shows pass or fail, and a charge % figure so it's easy enough to interpret the results for yourself.

[Sheldon McIntosh]

That looks like a pretty handy tool festy, but wouldn't a mulitmeter do exactly the same job (but with slightly more stuffing around)?

Surely the auto-elec, or Alfa specialist,  would have picked up on the obvious stuff though, like a knackered battery or an obvious current drain?  Well, really, if the auto-elec can't find the problem then he really shouldn't be in business should he?

[MD]

Batteries can go flat for all the reasons already covered.

What hasn't been covered is whether the alternator is actually charging the battery. However, as the super Shitbox Captain has already implied, the auto elect. would surely have tested that first.

.....many patients have died at the hands of the doctor. Mistakes can and are being made all the time.

BTW Captain  The mutlimeter is indeed useful to measure how the voltage stands up to current load. However you need to set up a current load experiment to get the battery to do work and only then can the voltages read provide confirmation whether the battery is indeed sound or not. Even stuffed batteries are capable of measuring say 12volts but they wont do that once placed under load. Hope that makes sense mate.
A simple experiment would be to use the multimeter to measure voltage whilst  the engine is being turned over by the starter motor. If the voltage takes a nose dive, the battery is cactus fuktus.

[Sheldon McIntosh]

Hey MD, nice to hear from you again

the super Shitbox Captain

I like it, I'll use that if you don't mind...

Hope that makes sense mate.

Makes total sense, we've all been there.  I guess what I was trying to say was that with a pretty sketchy description of the problem we're all just farting in the wind, or as I heard today "whispering into a jet engine".  We'd all be just surmising.  Any auto-elec should be able to trace a problem like this surely, isn't that what they get paid for?  Shit, I'm just a monkey with a multimeter, and I'm pretty certain that I could trace a current drain within an hour or two (and I have on many occasions).  It's a bit more difficult when you don't have the car in front of you....

Bellbird, did the auto-elec and the Alfa specialist really give up on the problem?  Cos if so, I'm not sure I'd be trusting them with any really difficult work.

[colcol]

The older type batteries, with the caps on the top so you could check the gravity of the battery, could tell you if you had a crook battery were easier than the new sealed battery, now you need a sophisticated battery tester, and the honesty of the person testing it, you could always say that if its over 3 years old, just replace it, Colin.

[Bellbird]

Thanks for all of this and I'll pass this info on tomorrow.  Will let you know what the result is. 

[Bellbird]

Here is the latest on the 164 - my speech writer wrote this   

Auto-sparky visit #1 was for two days. Checked a few things, found nothing – recommended new battery. New battery purchased, but bad advice by retailer resulted in under spec battery!

Another new battery was purchased – bigger, fatter, meaner and tougher – deemed good, even for a dodgy 164 ;-) Assumed problem was solved but it still went flat! This car only gets occasional use, so it had been left for a "few" days before the re-discovery. Hey its an Alfa, we don't want to push the limits too much by using it EVERY day.

So back to the auto-sparky – for another two days! This time they tested all the circuits – a la festy's advice.(Unfortunately though, they did not have the advantage of access to festy's reccs – maybe next time?) Result: significant current drain on circuit to rear window demister! Apparently a faulty relay held the circuit on regardless of the switch position!

Voila, in three days the battery is as flat as a tack! (Seems odd to me as I would have assumed that the ignition switch would isolate this – but apparently not!) Last I heard they were sourcing a replacement relay. Lovely vehicle the 164, especially with all its creature comforts – but the "comforts" are all controlled by electrics so if there are issues, it can become painful. Thanks to all the respondents on the forum for your advice and assistance – as ever an invaluable source of solid gold info JAnd festy, at least one forum-ite is known to have gone to JCAR that very day and purchased one of those circuit testers for his "kit". (btw they are out of stock in the warehouse, but your local shop may still have some – possibly not for long though ;-)

[festy]

Auto-sparky visit #1 was for two days. Checked a few things, found nothing – recommended new battery. New battery purchased, but bad advice by retailer resulted in under spec battery!

...and bad advice from the sparky too, apparently.

Result: significant current drain on circuit to rear window demister! Apparently a faulty relay held the circuit on regardless of the switch position!

Voila, in three days the battery is as flat as a tack! (Seems odd to me as I would have assumed that the ignition switch would isolate this – but apparently not!)

The demister draws a sizable current (as you've found out) so rather than draw that current through the ignition switch, the relay would have constant power so the switch only supplies the (much smaller) relay coil current.
If the relay sticks on, the key position has no affect.
Similar to a starter motor - the solenoid is switched, but the starter's supply is direct to the battery. If the solenoid jams on, it won't stop until the battery is disconnected (or flattened).
But that would be a little easier to spot than a demister stuck on

[colcol]

Don't know what sort of relay a 164 uses, but should be able to get one from a wrecker or ebay, may be able to get one from Bosch, Hella, Lucas, etc, if it is a common one, if not, but Alfa special, with the old school cars like 33,s, when you turn on high drain device like rear window or power windows, charge light will dimly glow, because battery is being discharged, and goes out when device switched off, and you can sometimes hear the relay 'click' when switched off or on,, auto electrician should have connected amp meter to battery, to see if its being drained, an Alfa specialist would have been all over it like a cheap suit, in Victoria we have a 164 auto electrician specialist, as he has owned some, Abruzzi in Thomastown, and he sells Supercharge batteries, Colin.