Alfetta Late to Early Gearbox Swap Question

[ItalCarGuy]

Well my little bro has finally decided to swap out his gearbox with a rebuilt one. This is for two reasons, stuffed clutch and below average 2nd gear.

Question I have is that the rebuilt one is a later gearbox circa 86 I think and the shifter rods are different. Apparently the later ones are more like a 75? Anyway it it a matter of just swapping the shifter linkages or is there more to it?

[Craig C]

Is it for a 2.0l or V6?

I have a similar issue in reverse (old to newer) and was assuming that the best way would be to swap over the gear sets.  As well as the isostatic gear change system I am assuming you would also have problems with the speedo drive.

[ItalCarGuy]

It is for a 2L. Through email, friends have also highlighted other possible issues such as:

- input yokes for different donut sizes - easy fix, swap yoke.

- driveshaft flanges - 2 different size bolts (m8/M10 i think) - generally can't swap the outputs over - the large bolt diffs have bigger splines I think

- shift linkages - conventional vs Iso. you can simply swap the shift attachments over at the trans. Putting the iso linkage into a non iso car requires a cut and weld on the shift shaft.

[alfa duk]

 There is also the issue with fitting the isostatic linkage in the early body, it doesn't fit. You can bash out the floor pan or cut a hole and fabricate a cover box to suit. Better is to swap the selector shaft from your old box into the late model and use your original selector rods and solid link. I seem to remember something about the clutch that there was two differing types of operation?

[Alan Hopla]

The answer like almost always is 'it depends'.
One issue is the isostatic shifter. As has been said you need to modify the floorpan in this area to make room for it to work in an early shell. It also uses a different shift link rod, and a different gear lever. The pivot point on the gear lever is moved to alter the throw of the shift link rod.
On at least some isostatic boxes it is an easy task to covert the shift mechanism from isostatic to the earlier method.

Another issue is the speedo sender, again for at least some boxes this is an easy conversion. The earlier electronic boxes just use a module that plugs into the normal cable drive fitting on the box. It is basically a really short cable end running the electronic sender. Later boxes like from a 75 I believe use a completely different sender which is not gear driven in anyway, but rather counts timing marks on the gearbox shaft. Also this later electronic sender is not compatible with earlier electronic type.

Then there is the output flanges, I don't know if the two types are interchangeable or not, though I would suspect that they are, as if they are different then the differential assemblies would have to be different between the two types. If the gearboxes have different output flanges and you don't convert them then you would also need the matching drive axels, and the top hat assembly. The rear disc brakes are also different, if you have the output flange with the M10 holes and top hats the discs have larger mounting holes than the ones used on the discs that are used with the flanges with the M8 holes.

As for the input yoke in my limited experience I have never had an issue here, but maybe I've just been lucky.

Alan

[ItalCarGuy]

Thanks guys. I guess my brother should order a Dakota.

http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=5023.0

[Darryl]

Then there is the output flanges, I don't know if the two types are interchangeable or not, though I would suspect that they are, as if they are different then the differential assemblies would have to be different between the two types.

As you say - "it depends". There are different diff centres. The (later at least - see below) open 4 cylinder diffs have a centre with smaller output shaft diameter (and iirc 2 planets rather than 4) vs the V6 open or TS LSD (or 3L LSD so far as that goes). The V6/TS output shafts can be swapped which is convenient because it means you get a choice of output flange (the TS box is M8, V6 is M10).

The one additional quirk is that the early (not sure exactly how early - probably same time the sedan body changed) 4 cylinder diffs have M10 output flanges - haven't opened one up to see what the centre/output shaft diameter is, but I've pinched the drive shafts/axles off as one way to get the diff centre to hub equation to balance after some swapping...

Derek
I'm not clear what the transaxle your brother has is actually out of/has been rebuilt with? If your brother has a TS box, or TS output shafts in a V6 transaxle, its all good barring the iso shifter (swap the selector shaft) and speedo. If not you need to get a bit creative with drive shafts to get output flange to shafts to hubs to all match (and be the right length - there are "cotton reel" spacers on some versions so the actual shafts are shorter). FWIW if it is a V6 box the ratios are probably not great...

[ItalCarGuy]

His car is a '79. It now has a rebuild engine from a circa 85/86 car and the transaxle(box only no axles) is from the same car. So it isnt a LSD. Its just from a late in the run 2L GTV. He bought it off Claude in Melbourne along with the engine when he blew his up last year...  The engine has been fantastic.

[Darryl]

His car is a '79. It now has a rebuild engine from a circa 85/86 car and the transaxle(box only no axles) is from the same car. So it isnt a LSD. Its just from a late in the run 2L GTV. He bought it off Claude in Melbourne along with the engine when he blew his up last year...  The engine has been fantastic.

That *should* be all fine barring the speedo because 79 is definitely late enough to have the M8 output flanges and so does any later 4 cylinder I've seen (though I've never seen one as late as 86). Isn't the speedo on your brothers car (79) still mechanical (cable) driven? But regardless of electronic or mechanical it will be Veglia and I don't think an 85/86 transaxle will have a Jaeger sender setup (no gear, senses the shaft rotation). If that is right you don't want/need a Dakota.

If you look into the transaxle's speedo drive "hole" and there is something in there that a square section speedo cable end/the end of the Veglia sensor (same thing) will fit into then its not Jaeger.

But - measure twice and cut once and all that - I won't be surprised if there are more variations than I know about...

[MD]

Just to fine hone into the speedo information if it turns out to be a box that uses Jaeger senders.

These guys come in two types. The early ones have a single black shielded cable terminating into a DIN type connector that is coupled to a Jaeger black box. The plug has three connector pins suggesting that it is the same as the late type, ie. a 3 pin type. It is not.

The later type has three coloured wires that make a direct connection to the speedo loom. It does not use the black box at all. It is also a three pin connector but of a different kind.

This is because the early type with black box makes the same signal as the late type without the box.

The Dakota Digital SGI-5 signal converter "translates" the Jaeger signals to be compatible with the Veglia speedo head. http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=126/prd126.htm


The photos tell the story of colours and connector types..

[MD]

A bit more info on the signal converter..

[Two Dogs]

Okay, so I am having the gearbox in my 79 sedan re-built and I want to fit a "Monkey Shift Kit" from Performatek to overcome/improve shift accurracy.

From what I have read and understand the series 2 (79 Alfetta Sedan) has an Isostatic set up.  The kit from performatek is just a kit that replaces the existing worn setup and there is no real change in function just increased accurracy/performance. Have I understood this correctly ?

Thanks

Carl

[Darryl]

The 79 is not isostatic.
If you have issues with a sloppy shift in the '79 look at the bushing in the bottom of the gear lever, and the selector forks.

FWIW some people (I'm one of them) would rather stick with the older, simpler shift linkages and not have to deal with the isostatic mechanism and its relative fragility/propensity to lose precision/become sloppy (through the sheer number of pivot points/additional linkage complexity).
I did look into getting the kit from Performatek for a 75 some time back and at the time some parts for the kit were missing/unavailable making it a bit pointless to replace the other parts while leaving slop in the problem areas. Has anyone bought one recently - and was the improvement worthwhile?

[Two Dogs]

Thanks for the info.