I've just started looking into getting the suspension done for my 2004 156 JTS.
Reason being, and i am yet to get it looked at, is that the rear of my car is uneven so i suspect that either a spring has sprung! or a shock is on its way out.
I got the following quote from my local Pedders store just to see what i'd be looking at.
Part Number Description Qty. Price Value
VNE-5254 Bilstein Shocks 2 257.46 514.92
VNE-5255 Bilstein Shocks 2 304.65 609.30
F Fitting 1 395.00 395.00
4WA Wheel Alignment - 4 Wheel 1 110.00 110.00
WORK WORKSHOP CONSUMABLES 1 8.80 8.80
ENV ENVIRONMENT/WASTE DISPOSAL FEE 1 2.75 2.75
GST:149.16
Total Due:1,640.77
I also had someone from Lovells get back to me with the following.
"We have our Sportlow range of coils available for your Alfa 156 sedan. Expect these to lower by 25 to 30mm from factory new height.
Front p/n: AFL-50
Rear P/N: ARL-51
Price for these coils is $165.00 pair + Gst
Freight to Brisbane will cost $24.00 + Gst"
I have a couple of questions.
A) Is that quote from pedders right or is it over costed?
B) What are Lovells like in the heirachy of suspension?
Just remember that i do not do any track days and am not looking for top shelf parts, i just want something that will give me a nice ride, nothing too rigid as i have a family comprising of 2 little girls that will have to put up with it! :D
Cheers
Sab
lol mmmmm seems nobody knows anything about suspension here? ???
it's just too ambiguous..
if you are asking what would i do? set spend around $1k and get the proven eibach suspension kit from alfisti.net
http://shop.alfisti.net/Tuning-Styling/Alfa-156/Suspensions/Eibach-ProSystem-syspension-kit::1145.html
pay for local fitting if you must thru them... but if it were me, i'd seriously consider doing the front wishbones as well as to not double up on work in the future...
what mileage are you at? if you are anywhere near 100km and 6yrs, about due...
that's if you want aftermarket suspension...
Hi ForzaSab
That Pedders quote isn't the cheapest option I've seen. Bilstein shocks are very good, but for $900 delivered I received the Eibach springs and shocks package that Wankski refers to - add another $400 for fitting and alignment and you'll have a proven set-up and a few hundy left in your pocket. If you want to try this sometime just let me know - I'm in Brisbane on the northside & work close to the CBD, happy for you to have a drive & see what you think. I have a family too so while I was after improved handling it couldn't be at the expense of the ride. As it happens, the Eibach kit improves both.
Cheers
Rory
Cheers for that guys.
@ wanksski
I was just trying to find out where certain brands where in the ladder of quality, ie
1) koni
2) bilstien
3) eihbach
4) Lovells
5) monroe
My car is a 2004 model but atm is at 70,000kms
@L4OMEO
Cheers for your feedback on what i'm looking at "family wise" i might take you up on that offer when the time gets closer.
Quote from: ForzaSab on August 15, 2010, 05:42:52 PM
Cheers for that guys.
@ wankski
I was just trying to find out where certain brands where in the ladder of quality, ie
1) koni
2) bilstien
3) eihbach
4) Lovells
5) monroe
My car is a 2004 model but atm is at 70,000kms
the first three are about the same in terms of being reputable euro brands IMHO. Tho be aware that koni STR.T is not the same in quality/function as Koni FSD, so it depends on model...That said, be aware that eibach make springs (among the best) and the dampeners are therefore third party (IIRC boge makes the struts)... what i do like about the eibach pro system kit is that the dampeners are specially spec'd by eibach to match the pro kit springs. that is rather important.... the eiback pro kit springs are THE bench mark for alfas and many euro cars, so any other combination may be hit and miss... you match the dampening rate to the spring, if you know what i mean...
that is why the modestly priced quality bit of kit works well... do not bother with the seemingly cheap alternatives...
as for lovells never heard of them, but for that money you would be mad to walk away from eibachs for the same or less money. it is proven in 156s. Eibach pro kit springs are paired with any quality dampener out there by default... Monroe for dampeners, meh... it's just not the same, and nor do they specialise in alfas... i feel their specialty is a different market.
like i said the euro stuff is proven with alfas, and is very high quality, eg dutch or german...
proven kits most to least expensive
bilstein b14 dampeners + eibach pro kit springs (about 1.5k landed)
koni FSD + eiback springs (about same price)
or full eibach kit (around $1k, bit less with good euro exchange)
i personally think u lose nothing in terms of quality and being set up right from default with the full eibach option, but at the same time it is very reasonably priced for what you are getting. JMO... also the more expensive stuff, u can add GST on top as they easily clear $1k, so will be subject to import duty.
If you plan on keeping your car, yes, i would do the full top and lower wishbones in your car... it should not cost any extra in labour, but if you ship in over from UK or europe (advisable), plan on adding another $3-400ish.
Ultimately, if you stick 1.5k-2k+ fully adjustable bilstein suspension, and your front wishbones never been done, i think that is money in the wind. if 1.5k is your max expenditure you'll always be better off on new alfa genuine 'bones + new full eibach kit...
my $0.02 anyway...
wow, bit of a saga...sorry if i bored you! :o
Good info. I hear what you are saying.
Quoteif you are asking what would i do? set spend around $1k and get the proven eibach suspension kit from alfisti.net
OK ... I have a 2002 TS Monza with the dealer fitted Sport Package (lowered red springs) for that year. I do find it a bit firm if on country roads as well as some suburban streets.
I was looking at a touring option rather than sports option so does the eibach have a suitable product ?
Hi John,
sorry not that I know of. AFAIK, the only freely available eibach springs are the prokit and the supersports (which is even more agressive 50mm drop cf 30mm of the prokit)
I dare say your best best is obtaining some standard springs fitted to the cooking model 156s... if you monza is fitted with the 'sportspack'....IIRC the sportspack used springs 25mm lower than stock from eibach with bilstein dampeners, and therefore had a higher spring rate.
If you don't have sportspack, I hazard to guess there would be nothing off the shelf that is softer than the stock set up. Custom springs is your only hope...
if you could be bothered going through all that, that is...
Thaniks for reply. Yes the springs are sport springs.
Perhaps back to standad monza springs with koni yellows for next JTS or V6 purchase.
Cheers.
no worries. funny, seems u are a bit 'unfortunate' in that sense... AFAIK, 2002 was the yr that alfa decided 156s ought to have the sports suspension as standard after the 'hard springs, soft dampening' was widely panned in the early models, especially overseas.
so you could have easily ended up with either....
odd as it is for someone to complain about the upgrade.... ??? :P
me, i'm stoked with my Ti... being an 05 it has the sports springs, but the upgrade of quality bilstein dampeners... saves me a grand or two. Yes the bilstein is much better (to my preferences).
Good feedback wankski.
Have to say John, my Eibach Pro set-up does ride better than the standard (non-SP) set-up. It's still firm and you feel every bump, but it's in a well-controlled manner whereas the standard suspension crashed into everything. The springs & shocks are simply much better matched than the original fitment was.
Rory
Know what you are saying.
I had better test drive a standard JTS or TS on the road so I can compare. I must be getting a bit old and want or 'need' a smooth drive. Having said that I may have to buy someone a jug of beer or 6 pack for a drive of a 156 with your the recommended upgrade as suggested here ! Thirtsy volunteers anywhere ?
In Auto Italia magazine, they do often refer to suspension upgrades so you car handles better on the UK country B grade roads. Better would not necessarily mean smoother ride, more like better handling I think. That is the key in this thread.
An important factor is the seats too. I have the recaro style cloth seats that are firm. Leather option like on a Monza or on a Ti are just that bit softer.
Cheers
I put Koni Lowered Sport Springs & Shocks (Yellow Adjustables)....on my 2004 156 JTS....
One word....Superb.....!
Price fitted was around $1600.....
On the softer setting the ride even with the lowered sports spring is as good as the factory set up...
I've given them a coupe of twists on the adjuster on the fronts for a little firmer dampner on the shocks....
Next step is a set of Continetal Contact Sport 3's on the rims..
I have some Conti's on an Manual XR6 with original factory suspension...Fark what a quiet but grippy ride...!!!
I'll never go back to a cheaper brand of tyres again...they are excellent in the wet especially...!
Good information on the suspension choices. The Eibach pro system is only EUR549.00 at the moment. At the current exchange rate, it's only AUD $730! What a bargain (gees I love the ozzie dollar at the moment).
My 156 Monza TS has been factory lowered and my wife constantly complains about it when going over speed humps at full-tilt :o Does anyone know how low this factory setting is? I can't imagine anyone driving on the road with anything lower than this (see pic). Anyways, we've just put down a deposit on a 159 for her, so now I can do what I like with the 156.
Whilst the 156 has a very firm ride, the car still has the propensity to wallow when it rides over dips in the road. I think the Eibach system would be my choice. As the car has done a little over 100k and I wanted to turn the car into a bit of a club/track car, I was thinking of also purchasing the following items:
Front and rear Polyurethane bush set (probably quite noisy and gives a harsh ride)
Front and rear strut bars
OMP wishbone bar
Eibach anti-roll kit.
Has anyone fitted these to a 156 TS? What are thoughts out there in building a club-car under $3000 for a bit of a laugh?
Do you think the brakes will also need to be updated? Alfisi.net also have some GT discs which presumably will fit the 156 and provide less fade than the existing discs??
http://shop.alfisti.net/Tuning-Styling/Alfa-156/Brakes/Brembo-Sport-Brake-Disc-Set-GT-Sport-front::3767.html
PU bushings - can be worthwhile for the track... but for suspension - before you consider strut bars and dampner/spring kits - i would investigate your wishbones first.
The first step is to make sure you current suspension is working properly... the bushings and the ball joint on the lower arm wears and introduces play in the system (and ultimate failure is expressed by clunking)
I think super and/or powerflex make hard bushings for the wishbones, lower and upper. This is a better idea than buying aftermarket - u'll need a shop press tho to push the old ones out and install the new ones. This should be done when you are upgradings springs/dampners. Inspect the lower arm ball joint, if worn, or suspect, or just old - get a new genuine lower arm and replace the stock bushings if desired.
Def factor this in with costs IIRC the cost of the bushings isn't too bad, and if you do your own labour - that's obviously free. you need spring compressors and ball joint seperator of the scissors style to do the job. The rear suspension is a lot easier obviously - you have a pair of rods with bushings - the cost is not much for genuine. go ahead and replace these as well.
swaybars - a good idea. the stock anti roll bar has massive rubber bushings that are a common point of failure as well.
brakes - yes. For me its worse as i have the same front brakes, and mine's a v6. The GT came in 305 and 330mm IIRC (same as GTA). No point going 305 as the rotors wont just fit, so you may as well go 330mm. Better brakes come from largely bigger rotors that have a larger area for bigger pads and can dissipate heat better. U'd need to space out the caliper to accommodate this. The GTA uprights are also different, so u'd have to source those out to fit the GTA brembos. Many places offer the GTA upgrade kit new, but as you'd expect its not cheap. If you're not willing to go thar far, better slotted rotors and far better pads with race fluid will have to do. So in short the 'gt rotors' in the stock 284mmx22 size ought be a straight swap, and if it is indeed a better quality rotor made for harder pads like the ferodo 2500, should be a decent 'stock' alternative for the track. However - it is double the price of the other brembos ('max') on that site, which appear to have shallow slots - and being a stock size i doubt the 'gt' offers any noteable advantage other than aesthetics... i'd pocket the E170 for other things, like pads - trust me, u'd need it for something like racing ferodos...
Gotcha.
So regardless of the PU upgrade, you recommend replacing the lower arms with new ones. I am now getting some clunking in that general area under certain conditions and that makes sense (and I think they suggest replacing at 100,000 k's anyway). I think I would pay someone to install the suspension and thus get the new bushings pressed in (too old for getting under the car these days :P).
Alfisti.net have PU replacement parts for both the upper and lower suspension arms (http://shop.alfisti.net/Tuning-Styling/Alfa-156/Suspensions/PU-Suspension-Bushes-Set-Front-Axle::1414.html (http://shop.alfisti.net/Tuning-Styling/Alfa-156/Suspensions/PU-Suspension-Bushes-Set-Front-Axle::1414.html)). Were you suggesting any additional bushes?
Regarding the brakes, I don't think I want to go to the 330mm units as this will require also a wheel & tyre upgrade (I believe the 16" wheels won't fit), and it sounds like replacing uprights and finding/making caliper spaces would bring a world of pain (including the bank balance).
One other thing after reading an Alfa GT article in Auto Italia recently was mentioned of the GT frame being strengthened over and above the standard 156 unit. Does anyone know what exactly that means? Is the standard 156 too flexy?
Cheers
PU - wow - idk why those are so randomly expensive.... tops only are 50 quid at ebspares...
on the topic of bushings - def get the pu sway bar bushes (should be included in an uprated eibach kit, confirm - ex links, so you may need to add those) and the trailing arm bushes here: http://www.ebspares.co.uk/alfa156/suspension_alfa156.cfm.
lower wishbone - yes, if the ball joint is worn, or even if not and it is past 100k why not... my car is close to 100k and is a v6 but its all sound... (17" rims too!) but you are going to pay to take em out to fit bushings - may as well replace - they are only 60-70 quid ea on ebspares (oem)... u may consider skipping the PU here and just fit the oem lowers to save urself over 100 euros - totally up to u. but if you are hearing noises from it, then something is shot and i'd def replace on age/mileage alone.
have no idea about the gt vs 156 'frame' - it is likely stiffer due to the shape and 2 door vs 4, but i don't think u'll have any issue with the 156. it's a pretty solid and lively body design.
Thanks for the tip Wankski. Well EB Spares have some nice sets of 17 inch wheels and it is very tempting to think about putting the 330mm Brembo's on the old TS. I did see however there are additional complications (refer http://forum.alfa156.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55217&PN=1 (http://forum.alfa156.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55217&PN=1)).
In addition to GTA uprights, you need to replace not only bearings but there are some challenges around the steering. The link says ..."steering arms on the GTA upright are shorter than a standard upright you will need either a GTA steering rack (fitting requires subframe removal) or GTA track rods." Crap!
Anyways, it goes on and talks about a Brembo kit utilising the standard upright on 305mm discs (Gran Turismo Brembo upgrade kit upgrade (305x28mm) 33.0002). I found a link to a German website selling the kit at EUR1150 http://www.limited-cars.de/lc_racing/frameopener.htm?/lc_racing/brembo/alfa.htm (http://www.limited-cars.de/lc_racing/frameopener.htm?/lc_racing/brembo/alfa.htm). A little pricey for my liking, although should be less hassle than getting the 330's and there is a comment that it should fit 16 inch wheels! Jeepers... I see myself getting sucked/suckered down a bottomless pit.
d'oh, my bad... my mind keeps on defaulting to my 156 - V6 model. No other mods are necessary. (v6 rack - a.k.a sail barge turning circle - v6 hubs and 17" stock rims) ...yes it adds complexity (a.k.a cost) with a 4.
Guess the real question is - this a track car? or a road car that can partake in club events? two massively different sets of decisions right there.
I guess the tenor of my post re: brakes upgrade is there is no two ways about it - gunna be expensive - or stick with stock sizes and uprated rotors and pads. I s'pose starting from a 4, the best bet would be skip oem. You can stick on any rotor that will fit and have the hat drilled in 5x98 w/ correct spigot hole - likewise custom spacer for the caliper of your choice. Last time i looked wilwood dynalites were an awesome choice for the specs and money.
The further issue is MC... the stock unit is a single pot - if you go a massive 4 or 6 pot caliper u'll likely need to uprate that. Really - i'm not saying brakes aren't important track upgrades, but i'd personally pass and just get better, reasonably priced rotors, and DS2500 pads. it's just a 4 which isn't heavy and makes what, 145hp max real world? speaking of which, throwing out as much unwanted weight as possible is a good idea and will improve braking... things like the AC system and even stock heater box are quite heavy and bulky, as are stock seats... just saying...
if you were to do it - go large. The 305mm isn't much of an upgrade. proof is in the recall in the UK for the first gtas that had the 305 - yeah they have more power and weight, but under emphatic driving - the 305s warped and became unuseable - hence the 330mm upgrade. yes the 305 rotor is physically larger and thus has more material to dissipate heat than the 22mm stock unit, but still, 305 isn't much more than 284mm... whereas 330mm is a pretty damn good size and much larger all round than the stock unit. With a proper 4/6 pot caliper = vastly superior... just saying, if you were to bother - go straight to the top. $$$$.
and yes, the spending hole you can dig for yourself is potentially bottomless - this is why i think hard to rationalise spending and pick my 'battles'. HTHs.
Thanks for the reality check Wankski. Your right, this is essentially a road-car which I want to put onto the track occasionally. I'll first see what I can squeeze out of the existing setup and next step with some pad & rotor upgrades. My excessive/compulsive disorder gets the better of me sometimes. Thankfully my bank balance, family commitments and this forum smash me down to reality ;D
Just to revisit this one again Wankski, does the v6 have the same steering ratio as the GTA?
pretty sure it does...
turning circle is frikken awful... :o
Looking at the specs:
2.0L - 2.25 turns lock to lock, turning circle 11.6 metres.
3.2L GTA - 1.75 turns lock to lock, turning circle reported to be 13 metres (http://www.aaa.asn.au/roadtests/reports/339.pdf (http://www.aaa.asn.au/roadtests/reports/339.pdf).
Some websites are suggesting that the 156 2.5L v6 have the same turning circle as the 2.0l. Any thoughts?
hmmm seems to be some confusion about it all...
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-147-156-and-gt/90510-turning-circle.html
in any case maybe you get your answer on the 156 tech day!! ;D
logically no reason for the v6s to differ... but then again logic often fails alfa...
In the handbook Alfa quotes different turning circles for the TS and V6, just can't remember what the two figures are. It's not a huge difference. Turns lock to lock are the same.
Had no idea the GTA's turning circle was so much larger though - 5-point turns, anyone?
yep, page 306 of mine it states ts, jts & jtd 11.1m
v6 11.6m.
the turning radius for the gta may have been limited for the wider tyres? what is on a gta ? 235?
my stock v6 is 215/45 on 17".
GTA tyres are 225/45 17, but the suspension uprights are different and may limit the wheel movement. Or maybe it's just the way the quick-rack is geared?
Rory
Hi all,
Going back on an old theme here, but I am almost ready to replace upper & lower wishbones, install the Eibach anti-roll kit & Eibach pro suspension kit.
Two questions:
1. do you think I should also replace track rods, axial joints and anti-roll bar links as well?
2. on the subject of axial joints, where they hell are they located? I can't seem to find them anywhere in the 156 diagrams on the EPER site. http://ricambi.alfisti.net/product_info.php?info=p6125_Axial-joint-Alfa-147---156---GT.html (http://ricambi.alfisti.net/product_info.php?info=p6125_Axial-joint-Alfa-147---156---GT.html)
Thanks.
Re: axial joints
Correct me if I am wrong, aren't they the inner tie rods (L+R), connected to the steering rack and hidden inside the steering rubber boots.
Absolutely correct Neil, they are replaceable, although not as easy to replace as the outer ones on the strut, if i remember the tie rods on 156's are listed on the ebay 156 site and they are sold by auto chassis kings, the inners, in the rubber bellows are $65 each and the outers are $50, Colin.
Thanks gents. So back to question 1, should I change the tie rods etc whilst doing the whole suspension overhaul?
If the tie rod is still good ie no movements in both the inner and outer balljoints, no need to change, I believe.
hey bix,
i def would replace the AR bar links, only 10 quid ea... assuming u are replacing your other bits due to age/use...
the other thing i would order if doing yourself is the strut pinch bolt... only 3 quid ea (need 2 all up)... sometimes its way easier to destroy the original bolt and just use a new one...
before ordering i would also see about the condition of the bolts for the wishbones... the long top one and the couple u need for the bottoms... make sure not corroded, might like to see if you cab budge the big ones first.. not that cheap to be able to buy the whole set just because... but i guess you could if you want to...
Thanks for those fine tips Wankski :)