I was quoted a very rough price for a full major engine overhaul at $3,500. Does this seem about right?
I would say that doesn't sound too far wrong, the problem being, engine rebuilds can mean different things to all sorts of people so in one sense the answer probably needs to be read as, it all depends. That includes what type of Alfa engine ie Nord (101, 105, 116) Twinspark, JTS, V6 etc. Also precisely what needs to be done, whether standard or alternatively you are seeking improvements to be made (ie. big valves, springs, improved camshafts, porting polishing, oversize pistons, forged pistons, crank work, balancing), let alone allowing for just how far the motor needs to be stripped down, work to be done ie. to the block, head, crank, let alone parts that need to be replaced. Finally also it also depends on the rate of exchange for parts to be aquired, and the price of labour of the mechanic you may use.
There are so many variables. I have had for instance been quoted less for an engine to be rebuilt, but similarly have spent that sort of money in the past on a standard engine rebuild. I am also all too well aware of the types of costs that people for instance may spend on a race engine. From memory, this usually starts well up from $10K. Good luck, as I am assuming you need to overhaul a motor ? Dave
Yes it's my standard motor in a 2l 1978 GTV, so a 116 yeah? The engine is the original build and is smoky and is burning heaps of fuel and oil for the millage. I was hoping that quote was parts and labour inclusive... damn if it isn't.
Damned bad luck mate. Yes definitely a 116 Nord engine, and essentially the same as a 105.
If you get in touch with Mike, he has a couple of engines for sale (though if memory serves me correct 1.8 rather than 2.0). The alternative is to perhaps get in touch with Marc at Milano Spares or similar to see if they have anything available. I managed to get a replacement 1750 engine in good nick of Marc for my 1750 GTV for about $1100 a couple of years back.
I guess the other thing to consider is to keep an eye out both here on the forum under the for sale sections for engines for sale, or ebay.
Otherwise there is probably no alternative but an engine rebuild and in truth you probably won't know the extent of cost until it is stripped down. However, if it is smokey under power then it is most probably rings and bearings etc, if smokey on the overrun, ie when backing off downhill than its likely to be valves, valve stem seals etc. Hope that makes sense.
It is possible you may only need to either the bottom or top end of your motor and that perhaps might limit the cost of repairs.
Either way it will cost some $$$. Dave
Join your local club and get to know a few people. Within a few months you'll get a good engine for $1000.
DBonelli,
Some general advice for you.
People who buy old Alfas in the desire to restore them often underestimate the cost of doing so. This pretty much goes for any make of vehicle and Alfas are no more expensive than other cars in the main. The extent of the cost depends on how much you expect out of the car in terms of performance and reliability, how mechanically practical you are and who the service providers are that charge for the work.
New owners will often start with the engine and when it starts to perform like it should, deficiencies in all sorts of other areas come to light such as the drive train, the brakes, the gearbox, night vision from shoddy lights and the list goes on. After you use it for a while, you realise the air con needs fixing. The heater demister doesn't work and the muffler now has a hole in it and it leaks from the manifold as well. The rear dampers are next to doing nothing and you are developing a wheel alignment problem from shot ball joints because somebody put a new tyre on the front left so it wouldn't show when you bought it.
What I am getting at here is that you need to have a holistic idea of what you want to do with this car (any car). If you just want to make it mechanically as complete as it once was so that you can jump into it and experience an Alfa like it was meant to be, you need to sock away $8-10k. I can assure you that your expenses are not going to end with the engine. It is that simple. Any less depends on how fussy you are and what results you are looking for.
It is always a better strategy to spend money to turn a basic well worn car into a dependable good thing where you know how good it is because you know what's been done to it as opposed to buying one at that same price as your costings hoping it is a good thing just because it falls in the same price range.
You can easily get another good running motor for under $800, actually you could probably get another GTV with a good motor for that price.
Why are so many people suggesting to swap the motor for something that may be only marginally less stuffed (or worse - it's a lottery)?
That said, it is impossible to give a valid opinion on what anyone should do in these circumstances without knowing the overall condition of the car (not just the engine, as MD says that is only part of it), more/all the circumstances, and what the OP's plans/interest in the car are/is. Spending that kind of money on a rebuild is a perfectly reasonable thing to do on an otherwise good (meaning something that isn't a basket case, not some unrealistic proposition of a car that will never need anything else done to it) car that you plan to keep for a few years, and getting the whole job done, on an engine that has seen some kms, is going to save $ over doing 1/2 the job now and 1/2 later, and will let you enjoy the car without wondering what will go next.
The original question re costs - sounds ok to me (subject to all the usual re "what is included"). If you can get a list of what is included (in however much or little detail) you will get a better answer. But regardless - if you are taking it to a reputable specialist, I'd expect them to be being realistic re what needs doing, and to stand behind their work.
So far as club members with second hand bits goes - Hammer is trying to get rid of bits off a GCL including the engine... See AROCA QLD classifieds. But if you ask him, he might well agree with a few other nutters up here - maybe the sun is getting to all of us?
Hi guys
When I bought my GTV6 and first joined the forum (about a year ago), some-one posted a list of the 'cost' of restoring a car.
From memory it had a breakdown of all areas- body, engine, suspension etc with estimates of costs to restore/ replace
Could be useful in budgeting for work you want to complete
Had a hunt through my files and can't find it.
If the author is out there, maybe they can post it again??
Regards
RL
Hi Repco Lad. That was my post.
I don't think it is appropriate as DBonelli does not appear to be at that stage of his acquisition. The poor guy is having a mild fit already me thinks from the figures floated so far. He has made no further comment so I suppose he is digesting the dialogue.
Considering all opinions on unkonown condition of engine, the cost of parts today, and the fact that these days every engine you pull down is 20 years plus and well and truly worn out, regardless of past minor freshen ups, i actually find it really hard to believe anyone could quote a full engine build for 3500. imo thats just lunacy, new sleeves and pistons are 7-900 alone, cam followers etc, hey a full gasket set is a few hundred. lmao if i were you, i wouldn't be thinking bout it, id be rushing onto that quote as the guy is obviously working for free and maybe even contributing from his own pocket for parts just to be a likeable bloke.
Unless a complete engine rebuild to him is just a set of 150 piston rings, a quick de-glaze, a head gasket and a wash of the engine bay, all of which he'd still do in the car of course as its tottally possible, and about right for 3500.
Hey Dave, you forgot to add the cost of removing and replacing the head studs.
Being a 20plus year old engine the studs would be corroded and when the head gets re torqued there will be at least one that snaps.
Thanks for your opinions and suggestions. I am keener to have my current engine rebuilt by a professional, I want to keep this car for a while yet and really I honestly think this is one of the nicest tidiest near original GTV's in Australia. I live in Brisbane and only have Avanti at Northgate work on my car. I only just 12 months ago or so had my donut-joints and tail shaft and centre bearing all refurbished and rebuilt by these guys, this cost me about $1100 and I'm pretty pleased and confident that these guys know what they are doing with these cars. It is true that I have been spending a lot more money on this machine then a sane practical person should, but I really like the machine and how unique it is. It's not daily drive machine either and I've only done about 6 thousand k's in the past 3 years.
I'll find out what exactly is covered in this price. I'm expecting obviously new piston rings, bearings, deglaze, valve stem seals, major carbie overhaul... What else should I enquire about?
Please have a look at this website, this is the car before I bought it, you can get some idea as to why I think she is very much (to me) worth it. http://www.antiquesreporter.com.au/index.cfm/lot/18476-1978-alfa-romeo-gtv-20-chassis-no-ar116370004879-engine-no-ar016/
Looks like a nice car. And it would seem to have found the right owner too.
And really, I think you should be able to get all the advice you need from Avanti....
It's always good to seek a second opinion before I commit to spending $3500 on an engine :)
If you plan on keeping the car I would advise you learn to fix it yourself. Personaly I hate paying others to fix something and im not really in the best position to be spending huge amounts of money on cars. Thats for fishing! Of couse I can say that because Im a mechanic but you have to learn somehow.
Buy yourself a Haynes manual. That is a must.
You can remove the sump and head and fit a new set of rings with the engine in the car.
Send the head of to be resurfaced and get some new valve stem seals.
Its a big job but its not hard.
Or as others have suggested look for a second hand engine (in a rusty GTV parts car if you have room).
Also as David said 3500 is very cheap and probably only covers what he suggested.
You really need to remove the sump and have a look at the bearings to see if the engine needs a complete re build or if you can get away with some rings.
Allways use a genuine head gasket.
Another way to look at it is for 3500 i would be able to build a pretty strong performance engine if i did it myself
Just my opinion
Some tips for you do-it-yourself engine rebuilders:
A little story that maybe you can relate to. I know I am in there somewhere.
You got a smoking engine and so you give it a valve grind, replace the guides and stem seals. You probably gave it a de-coke around the combustion chamber, fitted a new head gasket and stitched it all up. After about a 1000ks you re-torque the head for good measure. We assume the state of tune is ok.
Excellent. You now have good sealing around the valves but the compression test is still low and uneven. Hmmm, bugger, you didn't want to have to hone the liners and fit new rings but looks like you got no choice. More bugger. Now you gotta take it all apart again and pay for a new head gasket too.
So now you pull the engine out, you strip it down and hone the liners and replace rings 'cause you know how to set ring gaps. The bearings seem sound so you put it all together again and it runs fine. Matter of fact it now runs better than ever. Joy oh joy.
Two months go by and there is a progressively louder heavy knocking somewhere low down in the engine and a lighter and different knocking somewhere around the cylinder head. WTF is that ? You fixed everything. What's the problem?
Well there could be many but most likely bearings-mains and gudgeon. You didn't change them did you? They looked fine but you didn't actually put a micrometer on the crankshaft nor measure clearances. Did you set the correct clearances? Did you apply the correct tension on the mains and big ends. Is your torque wrench calibrated? How do you know you have applied the correct tension? Have the big end bolts stretched because you didn't fit new ones. Did you have the oil galleries cleaned including the ones in the crankshaft? Could your problem be oil starvation due to a partial blockage coupled with an oil pump that needs to be replaced or rebuilt?
You got lucky. Actually it was none of those things because you were arsey. Where it all fell apart is when you rebuilt all the upper part of the block and this means you now have original compression but running worn bearing clearances. The extra hammering these parts are getting is actually caused by you because you are now using the engine with gusto and why shouldn't you. It's going great. Er..was going great.
Another words, your poor and incomplete attention to detail has caused you to ruin your own engine.
Good mechanics pay attention to ALL the details and ensure a thorough end to end job. You get what you pay for.
A tip for you non-finger pokers
Get a fully itemised quotation of what is actually going to be done when the engine is reconditioned. If you are not confident that you understand what is spelled out for you, get a second opinion from another mechanic or the RACV/ NRMA/ RACQ. Any deficiencies in the quotation should be sorted before you start the job and not after.
My Group S GTV is getting new pistons, piston liners, camshafts, bearings, top and bottom cam chains, oil-pump and carburettors fitted, plus obviously all seals and gaskets and $3500 will just about cover the labour. Parts are extra.
You can buy a cheap engine or you can get a cheap rebuild but ultimately you will get what you pay for. Remember, when these cars were new, not every Joe could afford such a luxury sports car. They never aimed to provide economy motoring.
MD you are correct however I was suggesting a low cost repair on a low milage engine.
You really wont know what needs to be done until you remove the sump and head.
You are painting a dooms day senario which can happen to even the most carefull rebuild.
All I know is at this stage I wouldnt be throwing 1000's at a standard rebuild on a GTV when the car is still worth nothing.
If it was my car I would be more than comfortable with some rings and guides as Its worked for me plenty of times before.
Having said that I have pulled a few engines that were just.....how do you say.....fucked...... so I know where your comming from.
bt46
You will note that I painted myself in that picture. The reason is that it has happened to me in my younger days when I was keen but without experience. I crashed and burned several Fiat engines by doing just what I have described. By the time I started to work on Alfas I was a bit older the wiser. However, the principle is the same.
Learning to do your own work under the guidance of a knowledgable friend or mechanic is the best way to do your own and learn.
MD He certainly would benifit from a helping hand. That way he might not install camshafts 180 degrees out and bend all his valves. Of course I never did that:)
For my mind you gotta learn somehow because if hes going to clock up the miles he may as well learn how to change donuts, head gaskets and syncros.
Chasing bad earths is also a good skill lol
A lot of information and a lot to think about. My experience with working on engines is zip, I'd love to learn. I'll keep you guys informed with what I do next.
DeBonelli
Its good to see your thinking about your options rather than rushing into anything.
Another good way to learn would be to purchase a parts car (GTV) for $500. By the time its reduced to a cut up shell being dropped of at the scrap metal yard you would have achived level 01.
if it makes you feel any better I paid around $6500 for a full "standard" rebuild on my 2ltr.
of course I got a little ripped off however, he gave me a 2 year warranty on it..
hindsight is a wonderful thing, don't spend as much as I did on the engine.
Quote from: Alfalfa on October 09, 2010, 10:05:22 PM
if it makes you feel any better I paid around $6500 for a full "standard" rebuild on my 2ltr.
of course I got a little ripped off however, he gave me a 2 year warranty on it..
hindsight is a wonderful thing, don't spend as much as I did on the engine.
Yeah - that would leave you short for cash, which you must have real need for, to make your tag line true :D
And DBonelli + Paul, I think everyone up here knows who Avanti are. MD and I would almost certainly agree on at least one alternative, but he's busy enough already...
And can I just suggest, that a good way of learning might be to take an interest in the work a professional does on your car, and do the maintenance / less technically exacting work that comes up on the car yourself, and not dive in at the deep end doing an engine rebuild yourself first up.