Alfa have done it before and I think they can do it again- produce some future classics.
Never say die and never give up (To BMW and the Japs) :) :)
They need to greenlight this....
and in black would be unreal would also double as the new nightrider car
Quote from: MD on January 22, 2011, 10:55:16 AM
Alfa have done it before and I think they can do it again- produce some future classics.
Alfa Romeo have got to start producing Alfa Romeo's again.
Quote from: MD on January 22, 2011, 10:55:16 AMNever say die and never give up (To BMW and the Japs) :) :)
The trouble with that is, what have Alfa Romeo produced in the last 20 years that comparable in price, chassis lay out (not to many rear wheel drive Alfa's in that time. Re-bodied Maserati's don't count), build quality and durability?
OK, I have been sprung. I confess. I am hanging in by the fingernails...my act of defiance against BMW is inspired by this little guy...
loving the tz3...
I would REALLY love to see Alfa make a proper sports tourer for once to test the Alfa market and see what it is that Alfa enthusiaste really want.
The lard arse brigade can have all the luxury stuff that ads weight for no performance gain. As for me, this is my prescription for the my next Alfa that I would be prepared to actually shell out some money for:-
Rear wheel drive
No air conditioning
No radio
No electric anything except the fan, wipers and starter.
Two seats
A stick shift
Manual gearbox
Brake balancing
No insulation and no sound deadening
No McPherson strutts
As for the rest, I would leave it to the good sense of Alfa engineers to get the power to weight balance right. The gearing and engine details to match, The styling should make a purposeful statement in simplicity but identifiable as definitely Alfa.
This car would not be a shopping basket, a dress accessory, a boulevard cruiser with hi-fi bass pumping nor a pretentious razzmatazz box on wheels to drive through McDonalds.
The car's objectives would be to be a pure motoring enthusiast pleaser and nothing more or less. The X-19 sort of came pretty close
Do you think Fiat would have the hormones to do it?
Quote from: MD on January 24, 2011, 09:54:55 AMDo you think Fiat would have the hormones to do it?
Nope! And at the risk of offending other members, the reuse of the Giulietta name is just more of the same. Marketing and make up (body and interior styling) over engineering and value for money.
To big a leap for FIAT to take if Alfa Romeo is already making enough money to justify it's existence while churning out cars that are a long way removed from Alfa's of yester-decade, why would they commit the coin when they have Ferrari and Maserati under their umbrella?
Perhaps if some diehard with massive resources actually bought Alfa Romeo from FIAT, then real changes could happen. Until then, from a purely business perspective, which all major car manufacturers are, if it aint broke, why spend the moo-laa to fix it?
Geez Duk, you know how to hurt a guy !!
Just when the dream was starting to feel good, I get a rude awakening with a straight kick in the bolsheviks !! EEEEYYAAOOO !! ::) ::) ;D ;D
I'm changing the topic heading to " It remains dismal ".
Is there anyone out there with something more uplifting to prevent me from getting a hari krishna outfit,some roller skates and dissappear into the horizon.....??? :D
All right, my bad, I'm sorry :P.
Have you seen any sign of life from real the Alfa Romeo? Any at all?
The Gillet Vertigo is the kind of car that they should have built ;D
OK I see how you're thinking but keeping it real, Alfa at the consumer end have never made a true muscle car and frankly, I don't think the majority of Alfa owners would want a muscle car otherwise they wouldn't be owning Alfas as they do. No, I am thinking something much smaller, much more affordable along the principles of the lightweight BMW's and Lotus stuff. Smallish. Nibble. Crisp. As I hinted earlier, a modern version of the X-19, 2 litre, twin cam, 4 valves, about 220bhp pushing around 900kgs for street use only would be a blast. Not ridiculous but definitely in your face.
i pretty sure that fiat was selling/sold alfa to VW and thats also why there are a few more dealer popin g up in the last couple of months to, i think with VW connections and aspriatiobn for alfa we will surly be flying the flag high again soon,
and also there is rumour to alfa entering the new 2013 (used to be v8 supercars) championship can anyone spread a little light on this yet
This from 2 weeks ago ...
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-01-11/fiat-eyes-man-scania-as-vw-repeats-alfa-interest.html (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-01-11/fiat-eyes-man-scania-as-vw-repeats-alfa-interest.html)
Seems as though Fiat are saying they would sell if the deal included VW's truck divisions ... not very likely I would have thought.
Quote from: MD on January 24, 2011, 09:54:55 AM
Rear wheel drive
No air conditioning
No radio
No electric anything except the fan, wipers and starter.
Two seats
A stick shift
Manual gearbox
Brake balancing
No insulation and no sound deadening
No McPherson strutts
I reckon this might be the closest you'll get.....
Hahaa. Not the first I 've seen but I'll take it.. :D
You could have just linked this discussion to GTV6.com :P
http://alfagtv6.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3302
I know what you mean but times move on and new things come out all the time. Besides, the two Forums have a completely different character and its interesting to find these differences as you go. I am still getting used to these guys or to put it in a better way, they seem to be aclimatising gradually to me.
My hate mail is getting less and less. Could be simply the cost of living going up though.. :D :D
Just posting a link doesn't generate the stimulous of local discussion as it otherwise would in my opinion. The reason why it has been a little bland is that there is such a diversity of Alfas owned here and I must presume many are reasonably satisfied with their current cars and some may have never even driven a rear wheel drive model.
Maybe they're listening to you MD.... http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/263068/new_alfa_romeo_4c_gta_sports_car.html (http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/263068/new_alfa_romeo_4c_gta_sports_car.html)
Great find Sheldon.
Brings a new focus on the marketing thinking I believe. What I mean is that within the curent Alfa ownership spectrum, we have evolved basically two camps. Front wheel and rear wheel supporters. Naturally some don't care either way.
So how to bring these camps together? Well, market a mid engined car which is sort of neither in the way it handles. So that just might bring out the wallets from both camps to get aquainted with something fresh that Alfa owners have not experienced before and I would be one of those guys for sure.
Good thinking Batman...
Cheer up MD.
IMHO Alfa have never have produced a mass market car that is the full package - so why start now.
There was always some fault here, or some bit that dropped of during a road test there, or the switch gear was flimsy, or my bum started to rust when i sat in it, or some other whiney, whingey little nit picky comment by some wanker journo who really should just keep driving his Wifes automatic Hyundai - BECAUSE THAT"S ALL HE DESERVES AND HE DOESN'T KNOW S^&T ABOUT REAL CARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry got a bit carried away there :-)
I've had to defend my love of Alfa's for years and I am clearly over it. I once had a colleague who was going to buy a new car, Holden/Ford umming and ahhing, "What are you doing right now" i asked - "Nothing"
So I took him for a spin in the 99GTV I had at the time, let the engine rev, took a couple of corners at the speed limit, and the Guy had a smile on his face all the way to Lance Dixon to sign up for a 156Ti.
I've had a couple of mates who've bought an Alfa after a test drive, and some ex Mates who didn't :-)
The rest are just cars Mate, There's Alfa's and the rest are just cars.
EVERY Alfa is bit with some Italian passion in some part of it, you don't see BMW sending their museum cars around the world just so the public can meet them and spend some time with them. Their cars don't have their own little guardian who travels the world just to start and pamper the car.
Sit down and watch "Victory by Design" and if you don't get a tear in your eye at some point in that show - sell your Alfa - there's something wrong with you !!
"Our BMW ist technically perfect" - yeah big deal - it's as boring as batshit!!!
"The doors are all zee perfect fit", bloody wonderful, does this thing have an engine - how come I can't hear it.
" My VW ist most reliable" - that's because nobody drives it like a real car, they adjust the plastic flower on the dash while they tottle up the shops.
So Guys, for me, I hope they keep making cars with passion for the Alfa driver, and the new converts
The last thing I want is for them to start competing with all the other boring Marques in Europe who seem to churn out the same cookie cutter crap cars.
And don't get me started on Ducati's. I teared up watching "Troy Story - the story of Troy Bayliss" the other night when the Ducati team went apeshit when he won a race - passion - living breathing passion -that's what Italian motor enginnering is all about.
I am now off my soapbox and planted firmly on the couch - no beer for me though it's FebFast :-)
Catch ya
Shane
What an entertaining read. I can just picture your ticking away at the keyboard and reaching for another beer as you press on..but having said that mate, WTF can I say to follow that up ?? !! :D :D
I have to say I do like the power to weight prospects though and I cannot believe Alfa would let me down in the chassis department. Who cares if the electric bum warmer is missing and the passenger mirror fell off on the test drive.?
Quote from: MD on February 04, 2011, 09:30:21 PMI have to say I do like the power to weight prospects though and I cannot believe Alfa would let me down in the chassis department. Who cares if the electric bum warmer is missing and the passenger mirror fell off on the test drive.?
Alfa Romeo MUST provide a car that can stay in 1 piece for more than 5 minutes!
What is it with this notion that character and woeful build quality are bedfellows? I really don't get it. How is it acceptable, in this day and age to even entertain the idea that Alfa could build a car like a 4C GTA and it would still be fantastic, even if it did fall to pieces in your driveway ??? ??? ???
Provide respectable build quality, enjoyment and value for money! It really isn't that hard. And whether the die hard are willing to acknowledge it or not, the Japanese HAVE been providing both for a long time.
Duk,
I don't need a reliable Japanese bum warmer much like I dont give sheit about a left hand mirror. Likewise I don't give a rats arse about the other 200 tach ons that the japs have installed into their so called reliable cars to get a marketing edge but have no soul.
We are not talknig about larde arse commuters here that want to get from A>B without the wiper falling off. We are talking of enthusiasts who derive a simple pleasure of opening the Alfa door and know by its smell that it is an Alfa irrespective of model. When they fire up that engine, a quiet irrepressible smile forms in the corner of the mouth knowing an experience is about to unfold. Changing through the gears and cruising through the corners is poetry in 3D.
With or without 100% build quality, there is nothing like an Alfa. The passion that Alfa fans have for their cars is not the same passion that Japanese car owners have.
Over the years I have driven all kinds of Jap, British, European and Yank cars. They all have their idividuality to be sure but I tell you this, I always come back to my Alfas to actually enjoy the drive. If there is a meaningful failing on the car, I simply fix it and get back on the wagon and keep rowing that box..reliablity is a relative criteria.
Quote from: MD on February 04, 2011, 11:17:45 PM
Duk,
I don't need a reliable Japanese bum warmer much like I dont give sheit about a left hand mirror. Likewise I don't give a rats arse about the other 200 tach ons that the japs have installed into their so called reliable cars to get a marketing edge but have no soul.
We are not talknig about larde arse commuters here that want to get from A>B without the wiper falling off. We are talking of enthusiasts who derive a simple pleasure of opening the Alfa door and know by its smell that it is an Alfa irrespective of model. When they fire up that engine, a quiet irrepressible smile forms in the corner of the mouth knowing an experience is about to unfold. Changing through the gears and cruising through the corners is poetry in 3D.
With or without 100% build quality, there is nothing like an Alfa. The passion that Alfa fans have for their cars is not the same passion that Japanese car owners have.
Over the years I have driven all kinds of Jap, British, European and Yank cars. They all have their idividuality to be sure but I tell you this, I always come back to my Alfas to actually enjoy the drive. If there is a meaningful failing on the car, I simply fix it and get back on the wagon and keep rowing that box..reliablity is a relative criteria.
Image is king in the marketing world. And it not just the Japanese who add gimmicks to their cars. What Alfa's do you return to MD? Your '80s GTV6 or are there those of the FIAT era as well?
Die hards are die hards, regardless of the mark. How do you think it would be received on the Toyota forum if I started to say that my MR2 was just a shopping trolley? I'm not 1 to own a car for the approval of others, and I'm not here to try and convert anybody. But my MR2 is the car I have owned the longest and it would be the 75 that was moved on before the MR2 simply because I've had much more enjoyment with the Toyota than the Alfa. And part of that enjoyment comes from its durability and logical (for an '80s car) design and layout.
Quote from: shane wescott on February 04, 2011, 08:59:22 PM
Cheer up MD.
IMHO Alfa have never have produced a mass market car that is the full package - so why start now.
There was always some fault here, or some bit that dropped of during a road test there, or the switch gear was flimsy, or my bum started to rust when i sat in it, or some other whiney, whingey little nit picky comment by some wanker journo who really should just keep driving his Wifes automatic Hyundai - BECAUSE THAT"S ALL HE DESERVES AND HE DOESN'T KNOW S^&T ABOUT REAL CARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry got a bit carried away there :-)
I've had to defend my love of Alfa's for years and I am clearly over it. I once had a colleague who was going to buy a new car, Holden/Ford umming and ahhing, "What are you doing right now" i asked - "Nothing"
So I took him for a spin in the 99GTV I had at the time, let the engine rev, took a couple of corners at the speed limit, and the Guy had a smile on his face all the way to Lance Dixon to sign up for a 156Ti.
I've had a couple of mates who've bought an Alfa after a test drive, and some ex Mates who didn't :-)
The rest are just cars Mate, There's Alfa's and the rest are just cars.
EVERY Alfa is bit with some Italian passion in some part of it, you don't see BMW sending their museum cars around the world just so the public can meet them and spend some time with them. Their cars don't have their own little guardian who travels the world just to start and pamper the car.
Sit down and watch "Victory by Design" and if you don't get a tear in your eye at some point in that show - sell your Alfa - there's something wrong with you !!
"Our BMW ist technically perfect" - yeah big deal - it's as boring as batshit!!!
"The doors are all zee perfect fit", bloody wonderful, does this thing have an engine - how come I can't hear it.
" My VW ist most reliable" - that's because nobody drives it like a real car, they adjust the plastic flower on the dash while they tottle up the shops.
So Guys, for me, I hope they keep making cars with passion for the Alfa driver, and the new converts
The last thing I want is for them to start competing with all the other boring Marques in Europe who seem to churn out the same cookie cutter crap cars.
nd don't get me started on Ducati's. I teared up watching "Troy Story - the story of Troy Bayliss" the other night when the Ducati team went apeshit when he won a race - passion - living breathing passion -that's what Italian motor enginnering is all about.
I am now off my soapbox and planted firmly on the couch - no beer for me though it's FebFast :-)
Catch ya
Shane
Sorry Shane, nothing personal, but this is a load of shit.
If you can't see that BMW have been making better cars than Alfa for the better part of 30 years then you need to open your eyes.
In the 80s, the BMW M3 was a far more exciting car than anything Alfa came out with. And even though it got 'comparatively' soft, at least BMW kept at it, and until recently their M cars were still kick-arse track cars.
I wish we could say the same about Alfa.
Oh, and by the way, if you want to hold on to the other part of your argument, I wouldn't google "bmw museum", "mercedes museum", "porsche museum", or "alfa museum". Only one of those marques doesn't give a shit about their past . Guess which one?
No offence taken Sheldon - of course I am full of shit :-)
Just to make sure I went to the Blarney Stone last year so I have another 7 years of talking shit in me.
I thought the original discussion was about the mass produced models - of course an M3 is an awesome car.
Would I buy one - no, I've been in one, it was a noisy, very fast German car, but it aint an Alfa.
As for the museums, 3 of them look like shrines, and the other looks like a big garage. Just my opinion, but i think it's quite sad to see classic cars who will never see the road again, or do what they were designed to do which is drive.
A point made very clear to me when I met the Alfetta at Philip Island last year. The joy I got from meeting that car, and hearing, smelling. and feeling t start on the Sunday is something I wont forget.
Catch ya
Shane
Let's not make a generalisation that Jap machinery is without flaws. Take a look at any smoking vehicle and 9 out of 10 it will be a Mitsubishi.(the other one is a clapped Alfa :D ) Soft bores and crappy ring combos. The mighty Nissan (Datsun 1600, P510)considered one of the best rally cars for its time suffers badly from front end lift over 135kph washing out steering and yet it has an icon status. For the equivalent time, a humble Giulia Super of the same capacity would have it for breakfast on tarmac. The other great rally brand Subaru for all its attributes still hasn't solved its weak gearboxes that crap out first so let's keep it in perspective. Never forget that most of the implemented Jap mechanical designs originated in Europe.
It's much easier to perfect a concept than to come up with one.
The irony for the Asian makes is that when you drive down any affluent Asian hubs,guess what brands proliferate and I can tell you it isn't Lexus notwithstanding its excellece.
Why is that so? You work it out.
Alfa core machinery is as reliable as the next brand. Peripheral failures are a nuisance but the car's overall satisfaction invariably negates a rejection of the brand.You don't win serious competition against world brands with stuff that doesn't cut it and Alfa has won plenty.
Nobody is saying BMW is not currently leading the marketing charge and they remain the primary competition foe.
Quote from: paul edwards on February 05, 2011, 10:26:55 AM
Hold your horses there good buddy
l don't see any BMW's in this picture ;) ;) :o :o
http://www.themotorreport.com.au/20743/alfa-romeo-diesels-dominate-at-bathurst
Good marketing exercise there. Easy to win the class when you are the only competitor ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_WPS_Bathurst_12_Hour
159 was 25th outright, First of one car in class H
147 was 32nd outright (last car not to retire), First of two cars in Class I (the other car was an Astra that DNF)
3 of the 4 BMW's were in front of the 159.
The 147 was at the 6 Hour last year, driven by some good steerers, it past me without any issues.
Yeah Paul that's all fine and dandy but the only reason they won is because they had a massive power to weight advantage- half the parts fell off along the way... :D :D :D :D
Great to see so many contributors to the forum get fired up about Alfas. Doubtful if any other manufacturer can claim to have fans with this level of passion about their favourite car/s. Passion is what usually separates Alfa Romeo owners from the rest. Even with their usual array of idiosynchracies Alfas evoke passion like no other and which many other manufacturers can only wish for.
In a previous life I drove many tens of thousands of Kms behind the wheel of the latest offerings from Japan and Asia. Regardless of whether the trip was Melbourne to Sydney/Brisbane/Adelaide or other out of the way places I cannot recall completing any trip and not looking forward to getting behind of the wheel of my Alfetta sedan because the said latest offerings from Japan and Asia paled into bland insignificance by comparison with my much loved, very reliable but sadly rusty Alfetta sedan.
Even now, behind the wheel of my daily driver 44 year old Giulia Super, I get far more attention and envious comments about the car each day than the vast majority of other non-Alfa owners would get in a lifetime of owning/driving the offerings from their preferred choice of wheels, some of which have all the appeal and handling characteristics of a washing machine or a refrigerator.
Good to see we are back on track and shooting between the Alfa goal posts, satisfaction and passion.
I really would love to hear from all you scribblers. You know yourselves. Every school book covered in Alfa mods and remods. Imaginary Alfa racers and hotties drawn on anything that wasn't nailed down. Otherwise known as the eat sleep sheit Alfa looney types. I think you get the picture.
'Cause you are dyed in the wool Alfa freaks,what are you hopeful from Alfa in the future ?
..and if you got some scribbles, by all means let's see them !! ;)
But please, no mock ups of Paul Edwards sitting in the 75 office with his helmet on. You know how shy he is... ;D
First thing on the Alfa wish list is to see them survive and then hopefully get back to their roots of making stylish, well engineered and good handling rear wheel drive cars.
Hey it is a wish list after all.
Quote from: MD on February 05, 2011, 09:39:38 AM
Let's not make a generalisation that Jap machinery is without flaws. Take a look at any smoking vehicle and 9 out of 10 it will be a Mitsubishi.(the other one is a clapped Alfa :D ) Soft bores and crappy ring combos. The mighty Nissan (Datsun 1600, P510)considered one of the best rally cars for its time suffers badly from front end lift over 135kph washing out steering and yet it has an icon status. For the equivalent time, a humble Giulia Super of the same capacity would have it for breakfast on tarmac. The other great rally brand Subaru for all its attributes still hasn't solved its weak gearboxes that crap out first so let's keep it in perspective. Never forget that most of the implemented Jap mechanical designs originated in Europe.
It's much easier to perfect a concept than to come up with one.
The irony for the Asian makes is that when you drive down any affluent Asian hubs,guess what brands proliferate and I can tell you it isn't Lexus notwithstanding its excellece.
Why is that so? You work it out.
Alfa core machinery is as reliable as the next brand. Peripheral failures are a nuisance but the car's overall satisfaction invariably negates a rejection of the brand.You don't win serious competition against world brands with stuff that doesn't cut it and Alfa has won plenty.
Nobody is saying BMW is not currently leading the marketing charge and they remain the primary competition foe.
Was on the Goldcoast for a week ;D.
Cars are always built to price and not a recipe. Unless you are buying some $1M+ Super-mega-ultra car, there is always massive compromise.
In the era of the Datsun 1600, what was the cost of an Alfa sedan? It's front end lift is a function of poor '60's design aerodynamics and nothing more. Alfa Romeo clearly did that better.
Subaru's gearbox issues come down to that very same compromise of quantity versus quality and has been massively improved upon since the birth of the Liberty RS/early WRX. How many standard Alfa transaxles do you think would survive with damn near double the traction capacity of the standard car, 200+hp and a 4500+rpm clutch dump (+ a clutch that won't slip)? Not many, I'll bet.
You could never compare the mechanical strength and durability of any factory Alfa 6 cylinder engines to the likes of the Toyota 1 and 2JZGTE engines.
What did a 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata cost?
Is a 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata a great car for its era? Hell no!!! (Where was the suspension and brake development for such an expensive and heavy car?)
Does a 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata have massive potential without spending huge coin but being prepared to make some real changes? Hell yes!!!
Hey Dukted one, hope you put plenty of sunscreen on...
Mate, we could debate the virtues or otherwise of Jap cars until the cows came home but this is an Alfa Forum and I am sure the readers really don't give rats arse one way or another so let's keep focused on future Alfa aspirations.
So if you would like to see Alfa make a product that you would be prepared to shell out for, let's hear your specs and don't say a Jap built Alfa !! ::)
I'll stick with my description from http://alfagtv6.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3302.
Perfect