Hi Guys,
I'm new to the forum and would love some help regarding the purchase of an Alfa Romeo Spider. I have been looking at an Alfa Romeo V6 Spider from 2001. I had the vehicle inspected (pre purchase inspection) at a major Alfa Romeo dealer in Melbourne. At the completion of the inspection one of the mechanics explained that the oil in the vehicle was too thin and not the recommended Selenia oil as pushed by the dealers. The outcome from this is that the vehicle could have some serious engine wear with the potential for the cams needing to be replaced at a cost of $4,000. This has concerned me greatly and has me posing the question, " is this a factual issue which needs to be taken into serious consideration when purchasing the vehicle, or merely spin from the dealer to ensure i am $4,000 poorer?????
I would love your input as this has me seriously thinking if owning an alfa is worth the potential heartache.
Thanks,
John
It sounds like spin from the dealer to push their brand of Selena oil, that strange, as it Happens has a tie up with FIAT, try a second opinion, go to an independant Alfa Service provider, have the compression checked, remove the cam covers to check for worn camshafts, if i remember rightly, the V-6 uses 10 - 40 fully synthetic oil, how thin was the oil in your car?, 0 - 10!, how would they know how thin the oil was, unless they drained it anyway, just make sure the car has a good service record, and ring the place that did all the work, and ask them about the car, the main thing with these is that the oil is changed on time and that the cambelt replacement is done at the correct interval, also make sure it has a steel impellor water pump, not a plastic one, for a place to take your car to, look at our sponsors page, Colin.
Thanks Colin I really appreciate your reply.
In the service records it shows that the vehicle has missed its 20,000 km service with the first service taking place at 30,000 kms. This concerns me greatly, but to be honest the owner isn't a car buff so this could easily have been an instance where he took the vehicle to get serviced, forgot the book at home and never went back to get it stamped. I don't think the dealer completing the inspection would have drained the oil so I'm assuming the assumption was made by looking at the dipstick. The cambelt hasn't been changed yet so that would be a expense I would incorporate into the buying price.
I'd love to own an Alfa buy I certainly don't want to throw good money after bad. Would you buy a car like this with 50,000kms or do you think I'm asking for trouble if I proceed?
Thanks John
50K is very low for a 2001. It should be servced once a year regardless of mileage though. From what you are saying it sounds like it has only been serviced 2-3 times in its life? I would avoid if so,
At the end of the day its a used car. The majority of cars driving around have not been looked after by the book. Missing one service is not a huge concern, as long as its been well maintained otherwise. What more can you do.
Thanks Steve,
From what I recall it has been serviced 3 times in its life. I thought that due to the fact it's only done 50,000kms this may be ok but from what I now hear once a year is minimal for these vehicles irrespective of kms.
Colin,
Have read your comment with regards to taking off the cam covers to check the cam shafts, would that be a hard job? I don't understand why this dealer wouldn't just take the covers off and check and save these guessing games. Also I had requested a compression test but they supposedly ran out of time....
A compression check is a simple way of checking the health of the engine, thats the most important thing to do, if the Alfa dealer won't do it, go to an independant Alfa specialist and get them to do it, if you decide you are still interested in the car, ask them for a price for pulling off the cam covers for a look see at the camshafts, and make sure it has a steel fan water pump to avoid overheating, Colin.
Quote from: JAM87 on January 07, 2012, 09:32:15 AM
Colin,
Have read your comment with regards to taking off the cam covers to check the cam shafts, would that be a hard job? I don't understand why this dealer wouldn't just take the covers off and check and save these guessing games.
Quote from: JAM87 on January 07, 2012, 09:32:15 AM
Also I had requested a compression test but they supposedly ran out of time....
You answered your own question. Removing cam covers on a V6 involves all of the labour to remove the spark plugs, plus more. At least 2 hours, and probably more like 3 by the time you stuff around with comp tests, then the gaskets on the covers would likely need replacing once disturbed, since they won't want to be redoing that work to repair an oil leak under warranty... How much do you want to spend on a pre-purchase inspection?
Haven't heard of a V6 with worn camlobes before...
Quote from: colcol on January 07, 2012, 12:18:23 PM
A compression check is a simple way of checking the health of the engine, thats the most important thing to do, if the Alfa dealer won't do it, go to an independant Alfa specialist and get them to do it, if you decide you are still interested in the car, ask them for a price for pulling off the cam covers for a look see at the camshafts, and make sure it has a steel fan water pump to avoid overheating, Colin.
Errr.... Colin.... How do you suggest one inspects the impeller on the waterpump without removing cambelt and waterpump? By which time you may as well replace it anyway, you've already done all the labour....
Re waterpump, have a look at the service record to see if it has been replaced, if nothing assume its a plastic one, BEFORE you get them to look at the camshafts, ask how much it will cost, this is a last resort, do a compression test first, that will tell all, Colin.
Thanks Gents,
Really appreciate your help... The issue is the patience of the owner- I wouldn't be too keen on having my vehicle moved from dealer to dealer to check compression tests then cam covers... My father has owned numerous Mercedes Benz and I must say he has never had such problems when buying his Mercedes Benz... I'm not saying Alfa vehicles are not to the quality of Mercedes Benz but I'm starting to believe that the dealerships within Australia are really taking their clients for a ride with issues/ problems and the ridiculous amount on servicing... I can guarantee people in Italy are not paying $2,000 for cambelts every 3 years, I'd be surprised if they did the belts once in the life of the car.
Quote from: JAM87 on January 07, 2012, 04:49:24 PM
I can guarantee people in Italy are not paying $2,000 for cambelts every 3 years, I'd be surprised if they did the belts once in the life of the car.
Then the life of the car in Italy is obviously only a little over 60,000km....
sorry guys, but compression tests and lifting valve covers isn't exactly normal for checking out a car!! as mentioned above, it's a big job for the rear bank on the v6!
what private vendor is going to allow someone to crack open the engine for a pre-purchase inspection??
if a so called "alfa specialist" can't tell the general health and condition of a busso v6 just by running it, then they are rather crap.
I wouldn't want to call ppl i don't know names, but the "$4,000" for thin oil sounds like a load of BS to me. i am a long time advocate of using thinner oils, and selenia is a very average over priced oil. You can see my oil thread at ausalfa to understand oils a bit - but the gist is, if the oil is always held to the full mark - where it is now is an indication, but could have just been topped up, but as long as it's had oil and not run low you should be good.
http://ausalfa.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4278&start=60
the fact is, due to the hard to get location of the oil filter in the FWD v6s, seldom are they ever changed! I had receipts for my car when i bought it from a "specialist" who charged for an oil and filter change, but the oil that came out of the filter when i changed it myself confirmed in my mind it was in fact not changed in a long time... like treacle... :( so i wouldn't be too fussed about history if it all looks good...
personally if the engine checks out ok, i'd call it good enough! No smoke at all from cold start - a lil' tappety noise is normal, but no other noises or vibrations, and oil to the full mark, stong performance on a pull, no puffs of smoke... you're 1/2 of the way there. The other major part is plugging it into diag or alfa examiner to pull the engine history/ verify mileage, lambda condition etc...
these engines are very well made, with a nitrided crank, as long as they've had oil half-near the recommended grade all should be ok...
JMO..
Quote from: JAM87 on January 07, 2012, 04:49:24 PM
I'm not saying Alfa vehicles are not to the quality of Mercedes Benz but I'm starting to believe that the dealerships within Australia are really taking their clients for a ride with issues/ problems and the ridiculous amount on servicing... I can guarantee people in Italy are not paying $2,000 for cambelts every 3 years, I'd be surprised if they did the belts once in the life of the car.
it's true it can be expensive - i suggest you bone up on how to do the basic stuff and save your bones for the big things that come up, like the cambelt... on the FWD v6 - it really is a full day job, and the parts here are expensive... As per the other thread i posted it - it can be done cheaper.... parts from OS labour from LD doncaster - genuine alfa belt kit, accessory belt and WP maybe comes to around $300-350 shipped..
LD's labour around $900-1000.
not too bad - obviously they can't warrant the parts.
Thanks for your threads guys,
It's greatly appreciated
CONTACT THE PREVIOUS OWNER (Name should be in the service book) OR THE DEALER SHOULD BE ABLE TO GIVE TO YOU.
HAVE A CHAT ABOUT THE HISTORY, SERVICING ETC & CONFIRM THE MILEAGE IS GENUINE.
THESE VEHICLES ARE SO REWARDING TO DRIVE, AND IF SERVICED BY AN ALFA SPECIALIST ARE QUITE RELIABLE.
ALSO KEEP IN MIND THAT SERVICE COSTS ARE ABOVE AVERAGE AND MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE MISSED CAMBELT CHANGES
AND THE LIKE HAVE ENDED UP WITH MASSIVE REPAIR BILLS WHEN THEY HAVE FAILED.
Thanks guys,
In your opinion if the vehicle is a 2001 alfa Romeo spider v6 having missed its 20,000km service what price tag would you put on the vehicle?
Been service on average every 2-3 years since 2006
Needs Cambelt as that hasn't been done and major service
And Alfa specialist suggest the wrong oil ( not Selenia oil) has been used in most recent service
Minor panel damage at cost of around $500
it's impossible to say as i haven't seen it, but assuming it's otherwise a nice example and pulls strongly, and is MANUFACTURE year 2001, (ph2, that is 6sp gearbox) this is a good guide:
http://www.redbook.com.au/cars/research/used/details?R=48480&Silo=Spec&Vertical=Car&Ridx=0&eapi=2
assuming it's at the lower mileage scale, and given it has panel work needed, and cambelt, and shoddy history... max 10k IMO, not a cent more. Walk away if higher...
but the above is just my upper limit for a nice example in that MY. It sounds rough, so i have no idea if i would be inclined to even spend 6-7k on it.. it's not hard to pick up rough but RWC 2.0 spiders 98/99 MY for $6k or less.
that's the market reality.
10k would have to be an otherwise solid example, nice interior, overall decent enough paint, pulls strongly and cleanly no smoke, sound roof and motor operation, RWC with decent tyres, no suspension play or noises, brakes in good condition...
this all needs to be checked, as the cost of rectifying the above can mount up real quick!
Wankski,
I think your assumption is truly spot on- thats exactly the figure i had in my head.
Appreciate your help
I have a 1998 v6 GTV with 72000 km. I have used Castrol Edge 10 W 60 oil as it is the same as the Selenia grade with no problems. Castrol is a well respected brand and fits well with the V6 engine. Due to the low mileage of my car I have it changed every 12 months and have owned the car for four years. The oil costs about $70.00 for four litres but you will need close to six litres for an oil change so so you need to buy two every secong change. I just take it along to my mechanic and he does the rest.
Cheers Agent 86
An engine builder told me years ago, before i purchased my 156, what a great oil Castrol 10-60 edge is, but i don't know enough about oils, so all i can do is change it regulary and check the level once a week, i use Mobil 5-50 or Castrol 10-60 depending on winter or summer, i think all this, if you don't use our oil Selena, then your engine is worn out is a load of rubbish, but you can't blame them for trying, go to a Holden dealer and they use Mobil, just like the sponsors of the Holden racing team, go to a Ford dealer and they push Castrol, because thats who sponsors FPR, so all the car manufacturers try it on, Colin.
Gents,
I had a look on the castrol website and the edge 10w 60 seems like a good oil.
castrol is ok - but just a group III oil in the API classification... basically a furtehr refined mineral oil cf "semi synth"
its good, i used to to good effect on a car i don't much care about...
my only problem with it is locally its a complete rip for what it is... supercrap sells it now for about $70-80 tho they do have 20% off sales...
for that money go to www.performanceLUB.com - you can get a group IV fully man made PAO based oil for similar coin. Vastly superior. Group V ester based is better again, but more coiln (similar to Group III Selenia! @ $23/l)
all you want to ever know about oil:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles
for application to alfas and a discussion of what is avail here:
http://www.ausalfa.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4278&start=60
HTHs
Supercrap have Castrol Edge for $81, last Saturday,and their 20% off sometimes is a bit suss, wait till Repco has it for $60, i just like to be able to buy oil by walking into Repco and not stuff around ordering it, and remember to change the oil filter every second oil change, and smile in delight, when you unscrew it and screw on a new one, a genuine one from the UK, Colin.
Castrol edge sport (fully synth) 10w-60 for a v6 then ...
and the entertainment guide has vouchers for Autobarn doesn't it ?
all v6s, the 2.5 and 3.0 are specc'd for 10w-40...
it is only the 3.2s that are factory specc'd w/ 10w-60.
Thanks for the clarification Mr W.
Sorry to disagree Wanski but my 1998 3.0L GTV states 10w60 oil. And ColCol why on earth would you put clean oil thru a dirty filter. Change it every service!
Cheers
Agent 86
I change the filter on my JTS every second oil change, that is once per year or say 15,000 ks, use whatever oil viscosity your owners manual says to use, as they should know better than us, and use the oil from your favourite oil company, Colin.
Guys,
What are your thoughts on 10 w 55 semi synthetic oil for a 2001 v6 spider??
Use the correct oil spec, that is 10-60 FULLY synthetic, look at the fine print on the bottle of oil semi synthetic it could be as low as 10% synthetic - 90% mineral, Colin.
Quote from: agent86 on January 15, 2012, 01:05:07 PM
Sorry to disagree Wanski but my 1998 3.0L GTV states 10w60 oil. And ColCol why on earth would you put clean oil thru a dirty filter. Change it every service!
Cheers
Agent 86
do you mean alfa slapped an update sticker under the bonnet or it's in your owner's manual... if so, please scan in the oil page...
otherwise...
http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_gtv_owners_guide.shtml
Hi Guys,
Thank you all for your posts... it is greatly appreciated.
I have another question for you all.
In my review for an early 2000's Alfa Romeo spider i have always looked at cars under 50,000kms. But over the last few months i have come across some higher kms cars ( i.e: 60,000kms-90,000kms) interstate. Before i look at visiting some of these cars what do you all think as to the life of the 2.0l Twin Spark engine? Would it be fair to assume that if they have been serviced correctly and maintained accordingly there shouldn't be any issues?
would love your thoughts on this topic.
Thanks again
I have heard of Twin Sparks and JTS motors doing 300,000 ks, when looked after and serviced correctly, and i have heard of them blowing up early due to running out of oil and water and not having the cam belt done at 3 years \ 50,000kls, if you look at one make sure its got a good service record, and if the motor has blown up, that it has been fixed properly, and not a cheap job done to sell it, also for higher ks cars, look at wheel bearings, clutches, brakes, control arms, water pumps, etc, that will need replacing, Colin.
Thanks Col,
Thats good advice.
I guess an alfa is like any other car- if its been maintained correctly it should ( hopefully) be trouble free motoring.
May be I am too trusting or but I am sure that an article in Auto Italia mentioned that the engine will need replacing or rebuilding after about 250,000 kms.
My 2 bob's worth, a lower km car will have less wear and tear overall - and the engine as well if correctly mainained. Good plan to look aat under 100,000kms so at least upon your resale, the car should be readily sellable with lower com.
Spend a bit more and get a car in better nic with lower kms.
Cheers.
Exactly John, always buy the car with the lowest kays that your wallet can afford and that the car has a good service record, however, these cars are getting old now, [2001 V-6 Spider], and if the kays are low then its spent most of its life in traffic doing short trips and not warming up, Auto Italia said that these engines are good for 250,000, on average yes, but they would be a bit smokey and leaking oil, so it would be up to the driver if they wanted to get the engine reconditioned or put up with it, 300,000 on highway kays and regular oil changes, achievable, Colin.