My 2005 156 JTS 2.0 last had its cam belt changed in July 2008 (at 48000km). According to the current advice (ie 50000km or 3 years), the belt is ovedue for a change. However, I can't help but wonder if this is a bit of a waste since the car has only done only 20000 km since then. Any opinions about whether I should get this job done immediately, or am I safe to delay it a bit. Also interested in opinions about best place to get the work done (eastern side of Melb).
yes. i can't be clearer than that. There is zero breathing room for the typo 932 4s...
Lance Dixon Doncaster. full cam belt kit and install ought be around $900
I notice in your signature your JTS is the first Alfa you've owned, and you are nervous.
It's been 4 years ... Get your Cam Belt changed ASAP!
Don't let a broken Cam Belt and the cost of and engine rebuild ruin the start of your experience.
Belts wear out by spinning around a few billion times, they also dry out and become brittle with time, the Alfa service bulletin states 50,000 kms or 3 years, or whichever comes first, as Joe says $900 at Lance Dixons in Doncaster or $3800 JTS motor on ebay plus Labor, the choice is yours, Colin.
Delaying the cam belt change from the recommended maintenance schedule is fraught with danger!
Ebay and the wreckers are littered with TwinSparks and JTSs with bent valves which missed the regular maintenance - the decision to delay the replacement can only rest with the owner.
Saying that, my Twinspark made it through 4 years without the cambelt change: 11/8/05 (60,233kms) to 11/09/09 (93,721).
It was a nervous 4th year though, so the question needs to be asked - what price do you put on peace of mind for the sake of ~$1200?
My Brothers 147 twin spark did 65,000kms and TEN years before the cam belt was done on his, he hasn't seen as many ruined cars in wrecking yards as me, Andrew, try Monza Motors in Bayswater, Mauceri Motors in Clayton and Lance Dixon in Doncaster, they are all on your side of the hood, Colin.
Quote from: colcol on March 09, 2012, 10:20:20 PM
My Brothers 147 twin spark did 65,000kms and TEN years before the cam belt was done on his
Was he trying to get his name into the Guiness Book of Records? That's a bit extreme I reckon.
Having just had my belts done, I must admit a huge sense of relief knowing I have plenty of decent motoring ahead of me with my 156. Like all who have commented, this is one of those must do service items. The cost of not doing so is expensive, especially in comparison to having them done.
If you want to try and save a few dollars, you could purchase as I did from EB Spares in the UK, all the items you need to have this done. Do include the water pump and make sure that the impellor is a metal one not plastic. My mechanic got this confused, as I had bought the correct one (brown alloy impellor) from EB, but he thought I had bought a plastic one, and so advised against using it. Not having seen them on the bench at the time of service, I agreed for him to buy a metal one (Turin Imports), the cost being somewhat higher. EB water pump 29 quid plus postage say 10-15 quid, vrs over $130 for the one from Turin. The delivery time from the UK less than a week.
I have never heard of a plastic impellar water pump for a 4 cylinder, but have heard of them for the V-6, not to say they don't exist, if the age of the water pump is unknown, then have it changed at the next cam belt change, and after that, have the water pump changed every 2nd cam belt change, that would work out at 100,000 or 6 years, when you have the cam belt out, the water pump is there just looking at you, its an extra half hours work, if you don't change it and it fails during service, you will have to pay the labor costs for a cam belt service, as the cam belt has to be removed and put back to remove the pump, and worse too if the water pump seizes up, then it will grind the cam belt away or if it leaks, it will contaminate the cam belt causing early failure, which will lead to engine failure, i purchased a Quinton Hazelton brand water pump localy from european auto imports in Box Hill of ebay for about $88 delivered, Colin.
Hi Andrew,
I must say.... these individuals who have posted in this thread know their stuff, i would follow these gentleman to the letter.
I recently purchased a 2001 ALFA ROMEO SPIDER V6 and had the cambelt done straight away, it was my first Alfa and was a risk i wasn't willing to take.
I delt with Hugh from MONZA motors and he was fantastic. In saying that i'm sure that every Alfa mechanic who sponsors the club will do a great job.
Hey Mr. Bix, my brother purchased his 147 from someone else that hadn't done the cambelt, i reckon he sold it because he thought it was about time it was done, brother drove it round for several weeks before Marranello Pur Sang did the cambelt, if it was me i would have trailored the 147 there, some people still don't get it, its not 10 years - 100,000kms, its 3 years 50,000kms, ask the Alfa mechanics that get cars on the back of a tow truck, with a failed cam belt, actually the cam belt usually doesn't break, the teeth strip off, Colin.
Thanks everyone - the voice of experience has spoken loud and clear. I contacted Mauceri Motors on Sat. and the car is booked in for timing belt, and whatever else is required. Knowing what I now know, the cost will be justified if only for peace of mind. In the meantime I will use the car very sparingly. A bit more bike commuting for me.
Just by the way: Has anyone tried to produce a more robust after market cam belt for these motors? There would seem to be a ready market.
Hello Andrew, all the belt makers recomend the changing of their belts round about the same time, so no one yet has come up with a superior belt, i remember i first heard of cam belts about 40 years ago on twin cam Fiats and they had to be changed at about 36,000 miles or about 50,000 klms, that was 40 years ago, and they are not pumping out the power a 156 is, and these days you have 16 valves to run, not 8 like in the old days, when they are running the valves close to the pistons to get good squish and high compression, the motors are known as interference motors, that is, cam belt goes, and valves hit piston, non interference motors, with low performance, such as a Camry's only need the belt changed every 7 years or 100,000 klms, if you get the chance have a look at the cam belt assembly, sprockets and pulleys on a 156, and you will get how good a job the cam belt does, and how it must turn over billions of times, Colin.
Definitely good to get it done. I've seen multiple Alfa twin cams at Maranello Pur Sang which had bent valves due to belt breakage. As Colin said, the belts usually don't actually break - the teeth strip off the belt. One of the cars, a 147 if I recall correctly, had done less than 50,000km since the last belt change but over five years.
its a reasonable question and i can fully understand why you'd be wondering about the value of spending a grand on something that may not even 'need' to be done, but as the others have said, this is a non-negotiable when owning these cars.
Why alfa choose to run their engines using rubberbands, perhaps someone else can explain that to me!
The reason Alfa Romeo and others run their engines on 'rubber bands' is that cam belts are accurate, and don't loose their accuracy over their service life, they have low operating inertia, ie not heavy bits of metal flying round, they are very quite, and don't have the timing chain rattle, every time you put a new cambelt on, the valve timing goes back to being spot on again, as you have an unstretched belt, with the newer Alfa Romeo's, ie 159 Benzina with their General Motors supplied engines, they use a timing chain, which has a longer life than a 'rubber band', but are a bit harsher and noisier, and chains do stretch over time, and become inaccurate and your valve timing goes out causing the car to become sluggish and eventually causing an alarm in the motor, because the timing is too far out of tolerance, only way to fix it is a new timing chain, which is about 3 times more expensive to replace than a 'rubber band', the choice is yours, Colin.
i have heard a lot about cam chain noise, but never noticed it... some of the smoothest engines known, i.e bimmer str8 6s and v8s are all cam chain.... pretty quiet engines...
even a fairly agricultural ka24de nissan engine, never noiticed it...
i'd rather a chain.... if i had one, i wouldn't be gearing up to change my belt over easter, i'd be driving it...
fwiw, the new fiat sourced 1750tbi engines have gone back to belts and are also cited to have a 3 yrs change interval... :-\
in defense of chains, they don't stretch... any chain, including moto drive chains, wear at the rollers due to dirt ingestion and wear casuing elogation as against entire chain link length.
a cam drive system doesn't experience near enough force to plastically deform a steel chain in tension.
the reason why a lot of newer chain engines are having this problem is simple: oil intervals. Most manufacturers have moved to 20k kms / 1 yr change intervals and this is way too much. period.
if you ran a chain system and never let a quality oil (with a good detergent package) get too brown let alone black, the chain would live a very long time. (along with filter change every time!) simply put, no or few contaminants = no to low chain roller wear.
there are a million old school engines with inferior oil with long lasting chains, including alfas own venerable old 'nord' engines and the 8v twinspark. chains worked just fine for those engines and seldom were an issue.
no matter how advanced an engine oil, it cannot teleport out grit ingested or carbon pulled from the cylinders. there gets a point were it's saturated and is going to score any rolling metal parts which come into contact. It's much worse for chains, as they are small metal parts and actually don't work at all on a fluid layer to prevent metal to metal contact like bearing shells do. They do run metal on metal (rollers and pins) and so if the lubrication for the metals parts carries contamination, especially larger dirt particles, it quickly gums up with the oil and becomes a very effective grinding paste wearing down the rollers much quicker than you would think. It's not unusual for a 10sp bicycle chain of similar dimensions and materials to only last 5000 kms. why? they are exposed to dirt and are only seldom cleaned and lubricated by the user. The same or similar wipperman chain that for example runs a mercedes 6cyl engine is expected to last far longer than 100,000kms due to the fact it is not exposed to the environment and dirt. cam chains rely on being in a 'clean' environment.
the very idea of a 40k kms or 60k kms 159 having only had 2-3 full oil changes in it's life is simply moronic. manufacturers don't care as long as they last the warranty period and they can advertise low service intervals and cost to the purchaser.... no one cars about the 2nd or 3rd owner who is left to hold the hot potato...
that's my rant fwiw...
Hey Joe, you are spot on there with oil changes, the cheapest thing you will put in your motor is oil, i remember a few years ago, a manufacturer was claiming low service costs on their new model car they had just released, "only needs the oil changed every 20,000 or 1 year", can you imagine the oil drained from it?, 50% metal, even if you don't want the dealer to put expensive Selena oil in, go to a franchised service centre and get the oil changed every 6 months or 6,000klms, cheap clean oil has to be better than expensive worn out oil, Colin.
Quote from: AndrewM on March 09, 2012, 09:08:21 PM
My 2005 156 JTS 2.0 last had its cam belt changed in July 2008 (at 48000km). According to the current advice (ie 50000km or 3 years), the belt is ovedue for a change. However, I can't help but wonder if this is a bit of a waste since the car has only done only 20000 km since then. Any opinions about whether I should get this job done immediately, or am I safe to delay it a bit. Also interested in opinions about best place to get the work done (eastern side of Melb).
I had a similar dilemma with my 156 V6 - timing belt changed 3 years ago but only done ~35,000 km since then. There is a lot of conflicting advice on the V6 timing belt changes - Alfa UK vs Alfa Australia.
I got Sebastian from Mauceri Motors to inspect the belt for me. I would suggest you do the same if in doubt.
All the best!
Did he say it was ok? And if so, did he give a guarantee?
there isn't conflicting advice anywhere... i don't mean to sound like a d!ck but this is a common misconception.
this is what happened: With the introduction of the typo 932 cars, alfa said 5 yrs or 100k kms for all belts - v6 or 4s...
THEN
Alfa issued a dealer notice to ALL petrol 4 cylinders, be them twinspark or JTS, that it was revised to 3 yrs, 60k kms...
No official notice was provided for the 6s. THAT SAID, look at your manual. it states that the 6s are good for 5 yrs *..... that * at the bottom of the page says checked or replaced at 3 yrs in harsh climates.... then of course people differ on what 'harsh operating conditions' - what is that? is climate a factor? what climate? aussie or iceland? conjecture befalls us...
suffice to say most people have moved to 3 years to prevent the alternative, an ultimate paper-weight that looks like an engine.
No official ALFA/FIAT s.p.a recall on the arese 6 was ever made.
ps. you can not effectively eyeball a belt's condition unless it is removed u need to see small cracks at the base of the 'teeth', once removed may as well replace of course ! What you can do is remove the cambelt cover and inspect the belt general condition - and perhaps more so its position on the pullies and tension. Sure fire indication something has gone wrong - belt moved to the outside edge of the pulley and even rubbing on the plastic guard = tensioner is toast. This ought be done every oil change or really anytime u have the bonnet open if you can. only 3 bolts to remove upper guard. takes 5 min for a lot of piece of mind.
Stripped teeth usually indicate contamination of the belt, not too much use.
The "inspect and replace if necessary" position; I believe is to check the operational environment, not the belt itself. As you say the belt can't be accurately checked. If you pull the cover and see oil, dust or any other contaminants, fuel, leaking WP or anything, replace the belt. If everything is good and the belt has been seen in perfect operating conditions it can be reasonably assumed to last it's full operational life span, whatever that may be. In practice mechanics won't offer to inspect a belt, mainly for the risk, it also costs, and why not up sell to a replacement. There is nothing wrong with that IMO as it's sound advice. But the customer is still free to take on the risk if they so choose to.
Quote from: Joe Garra on March 20, 2012, 01:19:57 PM
Did he say it was ok? And if so, did he give a guarantee?
Yes he said it should be fine for another 10,000 km, the next scheduled minor service.
No guarantees of course, but that's the nature of the beast.
Having said that, however, I will be changing it at the next 5,000 km oil and filter change service. 30,000 km and 3.4 years is a safe compromise, no?
Quote from: trippytipo on March 20, 2012, 06:01:39 PM
Yes he said it should be fine for another 10,000 km, the next scheduled minor service.
I thought it was impossible to predict this?
Like if you 'inspect' the belt, you have to remove all the gaurds, to look at the belt, take the cam covers off, fit the cam locks, then get under the car and remove the lower flywheel cover, fit the flywheel lock, then loosen off cam tensioners, remove the balance shaft belt, then flick the timing off and with a magnifying glass check the teeth on the cam belt for any cracks, at this point you would have to be an absolute loony to put the second hand belt back, new brand name belts cost $40-$100 or whatever and the labor cost would be $700 or whatever, inspect the belt?, not really, Colin.
For your general amusement gentlemen, the British sense of humour:
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-145-and-146/158218-cambelt-fails-at-last-105486-miles.html
;D ;D ;D
Bloke runs his twin spark 9 years and a million miles and just waits to see how far he can go until the belt breaks!, didn't mention the engine damage caused when the belt let go, but was happy that the belt broke where it did, and he was able to coast along, until he rolled up to a pub, where he could go in and have a pint to drown his sorrows, he had just been down to the 'Stealers' [Dealer], to get a new cambelt!, why doesn't he do what we do in Australia, and buy it from EB Spares [Egg & Bacon], such a daft bugger, most likely hasn't heard of EB Spares, i bet you London to a Brick he likely buys his parts from A.R. Australia, Colin.
hehe, that was smaky... he rebuilds twinnies every other night... he rebuilt his in 11 hours with parts laying around his garage... ;D
Quote from: trippytipo on March 20, 2012, 09:42:49 PM
For your general amusement gentlemen, the British sense of humour:
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-145-and-146/158218-cambelt-fails-at-last-105486-miles.html
;D ;D ;D
That is amazing! What an odd experiment....i cant see the pics because you need to log in....that would be interesting too.
It does give you some peace of mind that if you are SLIGHTLY overdue for a belt change, you'll probably be OK for an extra 10-15k (given that this guy drove 100K on one belt!).
well yeah... alfa originally reckoned they ought last 5 yrs or so.... but a whole heap kept on busting valves on pistons well under than hence the revision..
for every 'check out the longevity thread' (there is just the one i know about) there are a dozen, "OMG my belt just went on the way to the mech, it was only 3.x years old..."
sure u can do it for shits and giggles, and it may even be amusing if you can rebuild it for around 200 quid over 2 evenings... for anyone not so equipped, it for all intents and purposes writes off your engine...
as always, your choice. I knew about this, but i specifically didn't mention it due to the predictable response... obviously, its a bit of rubber on metal pullies... it doesn't go with any accuracy, it's all random... but AUS isn't UK... shit get real expensive real quick over here.
really, anyone who isnt fully aware of the belt issue with these cars simply hasnt done their homework (same goes for people who buy selespeeds!).
As cars come down in value ( i saw a mint condition red 147 for sale within this forum for 10K) the idea of spending 10% of the cars value on something that 'might be ok for another 20K', you can see why people try their luck.
I wondering if anyone has used Lube Mobile or a generic mechanic to change the belt and what that cost?
Quote from: trippytipo on March 20, 2012, 09:42:49 PM
For your general amusement gentlemen, the British sense of humour:
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-145-and-146/158218-cambelt-fails-at-last-105486-miles.html
;D ;D ;D
Nice thread & nice valve marks on the pistons.
At our 932 tech night, Bruno reckons the 146 tends to be more susceptible to belt failures than 156s even though they're the same engine...
I did a bit more of reading on the Internet regarding the 156 2.5 V6 cam belt change intervals and the following interesting titbit caught my eye:
http://www.alfaromeo.com.au/default.asp?action=article&ID=21719
I was also reading up on on some post in the alfaowner.com forum (lost the link now) where the OP e-mails Alfa Romeo UK for clarification on the timing belt frequency and he was told that the schedule is 72,000 miles or 5 years BUT under "harsh driving conditions" (i.e. cold climates, heavy traffic, long periods of idling) it should be done every 36,000 miles or 3 years. It appears that most people in the UK do them around 50,000 miles or 4 years.
BUT given that our climate is harsher than the UK (in terms of the heat and dryness) and I do heaps of heavy traffic / city driving, I've decided to book her in for a timing belt change next week. Being $1200 poorer is better than worrying about being $8000 poorer every time I turn the ignition.
I just want to clarify that Sebastian from Mauceri Motors did advice me to consider a timing belt change when I first drove in for a service earlier this month but I was quite adamant (having read what the British Alfisti do) that it should be good for another year or 10,000 km (4 years or 40,000 km). He offered to take off the engine cover for me and have a visual inspection of the belt and said that it should be fine till the next service but did also advise me that it is usually not the belt that fails, but the tensioners.
In a nutshell, the decision was mine to delay it but thanks to all the sound advice from the fine people in this forum - it will be done next week.
Hope this helps anyone stuck in the same dilemma as I was!
Hey Mr. Bix, i will be a smarty pants here and say that the 146 wasn't sold here, you must be thinking of the 147, maybe that 156 owners drive more responsibly and care more about their cars than 147 owners...., no, no-one will buy that one, i drove my brothers 147 twin spark, and it seems quite lively, maybe the lighter weight allows it to spin up more freely, and something not mentioed about cam tensioners, the genuine Alfa Romeo are head and shoulders above non genuine cam tensioners, the non genuine ones always seem a bit more wobbly in the bearing and the grease has started to leak, and they appear not as good quality, has anyone else noticed that?, Colin.
If anyone's still interested in my story, I finally got the job done. Replaced the following:
Engine timing belt, tensioner and pulleys
Water pump
Coolant
Auxiliary belt and pulleys
While the timing belt, tensioner and pulleys were in good shape, the water pump was showing signs of wear and slight leakage. Glad I went ahead with this, otherwise who would know what would have happened had I waited a year! *shudder*
All in all, the damage was ~$1600.
Very reasonable, given the brilliant job and attention to detail by the fine mechanics at Mauceri Motors.
Apparently a big part of the problem is too much friction in the tensioners causing the belt to heat up and become brittle ... not sure but it sounds fair
With poor quality non genuine tensioners, they are sloppy to start of with and time the bearing wears out and the tensioner starts to run at an angle to the belt, wearing the edge of the belt, and or the grease in the bearing can leak past the seal causing bearing to dry out and become noisy, thats when you change it, if you don't, it will seize up and rub the belt away until the belt breaks, and you have to look for a new motor, thank christ for the internet and ebay, where we can buy good quality tensioners at a reasonable price, Colin.