Steering Racks for 116 Cars

[Fylnn]

Question 2.  I read somewhere the other day that the ZF steering rack from a VL Commodore can be made to fit into a 116 GTV.  It does not look like a straight swap, the mounting points are different for a start, but I am assuming they mean the internals go in the housing.

Anyone heard or tried this one before?

[colcol]

The VB-onwards Commodore was a German Car with a German ZF steering rack, my 33 had a ZF rack, and i purchased a repair kit from ZF Australia, might be worth contacting ZF Australia to see if there is any interchangeability, the housings would be diffferent for the different cars, but the internals may interchange.....interesting subject, when you find out in the auto industry what fits what, Colin.

[LukeC]

First of all: What are you trying to achieve?

Is you rack cactus, or get a quicker rack ratio?

[Duk]

This is interesting as I was thinking the same some time ago.
The power steering Commodore racks have a 2.5 turn lock to lock which is about 0.75 turns less than an Alfa power steering rack.
However, if faster steering is your goal, you also have to factor in the length of the steering arms on the upright/strut. The Alfa's arm is quite long, about 150mm from the centre of the stub axle to the centre of the tie rod end hole. What that same distance on a Commodore strut is, I don't know. Tho they do look pretty long.

[Fylnn]

What I am trying to achieve is a quicker rack ratio.  I spent the weekend giving myself a DIY gym workout twirling the wheel from lock to lock.  It is a GTV6 gravel rally car, so lots of opposite lock and rear attitude if I drive it properly.  On gravel on rally tyres the steering is light enough now.  It won't be ideal on tarmac with road tyres, but have to look at what it is meant to do.  The common ratio in an Escort set up for gravel and powered by money is 2.4 lock to lock.  Quaife make them for instance, but not for a 116. 

The other thing that prompted the question is I seem to be suffering from increasing rack rattle, and so looking at what options I have if I pull the rack out for an inspection.  What do I put back?

[colcol]

I am sure this has been done and talked about before, could you fit a power rack out of a 75/90?, as power steering has a quicker ratio than a manual rack, and it may bolt straight in, all race cars have power steering, due to less effort and fatique to driver, would need to rig up a pump somewhere, Colin.

[MD]

Sorry Col. I have to disagree with you on this occasion or at least offer an alternate viewpoint.

Not all race cars have power steering. My particular point about transaxles is that no RACING transaxle being rear wheel drive should have power steering at all.

Driving one around for a shopping basket and parking it 100 times a week is a different story.

On a race car you want maximum steering feedback. Fitting power steering simply decouples the driver from the steering feedback and leaves you in less than optimum knowledge of what the car is doing. Furthermore, power steering can never RESPOND to steering requirements as quickly as a manual one and so for the dual reasons of feedback and reaction speed a manual rack is the go.

Rapid steering response in a rally I would have thought has to be at the top of the list.

Of course if rack ratio is all one needs, it is always possible to simply use the power rack without power assist to use in a manual mode.

[colcol]

Speaking to different people, power steering is a good thing for a race car, as you can run better suspension angles for better grip, but it has heavier steering, and you can drive to this part of the track, because you just steer it there, without power steering it is too much hard work, V-8 Supercars and Formula 1 cars all use power steering as you can turn quicker, downside is more weight, complexity and reliability problems, just look at the Valvoline Volvo Team power steering dramas, and when a V-8 starts to smoke, if it isn't the Albins transaxle about to blow up, then its a power steering issue, Colin.

[MD]

Without spelling it out when  I refer to transaxles I naturally mean Alfa.

Front wheel drive cars are a completely other thing.

I stand by what I said. My Alfetta racer has about as geometry modifications one car can stand and it does not need power steering.

Next time you want to compare power steering with manual steering response, try doing an ELK test in identical cars with and without power steering and see how you go.

[colcol]

To each their own, when the Transaxle V-8 Supercars go back to manual steering, from power steering, we will hear whinging from the drivers, the heavier steering over a race period would be a Health and Occupational issue.
In the UK, some 16 valve 33 drivers have gone from 2-1/4 turns lock to lock power steering to 3-1/2 half turns lock to lock manual steering for better feel and lightening the car, so each one has their own preference.
Is an ELK test anything like a MOOSE test, where the driver of the car has to steer away quickly from a pretend moose, you would need a quick ratio power steering, otherwise you would hit the poor moose or elk, ask Mercedes Benz about it, Colin.

[aggie57]

Ummm, MD, my 911 has power steering and it's, ummm, every bit as good as any manual system I've ever used, and I've driven a lot of 116 series cars. Responsive, fast, totally full of feel, all that and more.

If I said it's much, much better on this forum that would be naughty.... 

[Fylnn]

I have no intention of running power steering.  More weight and complication and I don't think it is needed.  Just looking for something a bit faster and more direct.

I suppose I might keep an eye out on Ebay or somewhere for a $20 Commodore rack and strip it down and compare.  Nothing to lose and a fair bit to gain.

[MD]

Aaahh, the ELK test.

In a power steering set up, do a 10 to 2 O'Clock and back to 10 in a RAPID turn whilst on the move and see how much direction the car has changed. The operation has to be rapid because any steering will eventually change direction if it is done slow enough. Be sure it is in a clear road and don't exceed 30km/hr. (BTW you do this at your own peril)

In the majority of cases there will be little direction change.

Now do the same at the same speed with a manual rack and you could expect go almost from one side of the road to the other.

Unless you have front wheel drive or a big cast iron V8 boat anchor under the bonnet, you don't need power steering.

About the only power assistance I think may work is an electric version that essentially is a manual system with effectively a piggy back help to turn chicken wing arms into Arnold biceps.This would have no oil pump pressure delays.

Flynn, I believe you are on the right track.

[Fylnn]

anyone got an old Commodore or its rack lying around?

[datwazclose]

Faaaaark a 911 with power steering thats scaaaary shit right there.......

cheers Paul