King springs versus stock springs

[amichie]

I recently bought a 1983 Alfasud TI QV that came with two sets of King Springs. One set installed the other in a box. I find the springs are very stiff. The car also has Koni shocks (sort of dark orange to red colour). At the moment my plan is to track down some stock springs and put them back in. I would like to hear from anyone who has experience with both stock and king springs and can comment on how much stiffer the king springs are. I remember driving Alfasuds back n the early eighties and they were not overly firm in the ride. They did have exceptional handling and heavy steering at low speed but not a very stiff ride.

Any comments on the ride quality of Kings an Alfasud based on real experience would be welcomed

[colcol]

I would try and put the standard Alfa Romeo springs back in as soon as possible, as the stiff springs will cause it to crash over bumps and cause the front subframe to crack, [ even more ], ring around a few Alfa Romeo wreckers, try Monza Motors in Victoria.
The late model Suds have similar front struts like a 33, but are not interchangeable.
The early Suds and late model Sud struts are different, the late models, some say are not as good, as the cornering forces are transferred to the shock absorber and cause them to leak.
The Sud gets its excellent handling by having a low centre of gravity boxer engine, negative camber on the front suspension, long control arms that doesn't cause large camber and caster changes and low unsprung weight, by locating the heavy disc brakes inboard, stiff springs are only for the race track, Colin.

[amichie]

Thanks Col

Do you know if all the early suds with inboard brakes used the same springs or were they different depending on engine or trim level?

As far as your comments about the suspension design goes I agree with you entirely. My only surprise, design wise, is the need to pop out the tie rod ends to adjust the toe in/out. They could have used a short sleeve section with left and right hand threads in each end. That would also give finer adjustment.

I've got a couple of club members searching for springs for me and should have something soon.

Thanks Andrew

[colcol]

No, they used different springs for different combinations....however, i would grab what you can, as it would have to be better than those King Springs, which are unsuitable.
The tierod adjustment, is the same on a 33, you get used to it, i think the Suds toeout 2mm, and if you do a alignment check, and it is say 4 mm toeout, then you shorten the tierod by one turn, which changes the alignment by 2mm.
When you pop the tierod off the strut, put some copperkote or loctite silver anti seize on the tierod taper and the nut, to make it easier next time.
The 156 has a fine adjustment for toe, by lengthening or shortening the rack arms, more precise, but not as quick as a Sud or 33.
While you are down there, check the tightness of the pinch bolt on the lower balljoint, they have been known to come loose, i had one come loose on the Sud, while crossing an intersection, and the suspension collapsed, no such problems on a 33, different design, Colin.

[Ricky Ricardo]

I haven't driven a Sud  with stock springs for over 20 years so wont comment on that but my sud running gear Sprint has Kings and I like them. Just my opinion but I find the ride sits right in between stiff for good handling with just the right amount of comfort for those bumps in the road.
I also have Koni Red shocks front and rear, these shocks are adjustable and should be on the softest setting as mine are. Unfortunately the shocks need to be removed from the car to adjust but it might be worth checking. I also like the stance kings give the car.
One more thing what's the condition of all the rubbers ? New one's would help the car feel better and if you have poly bushes throw them far away, they would likely be the cause of all your troubles if there in your car.       

[amichie]

Thanks for that Ricky Ricardo.

Just on the topic of the KONIs does anybody know if these are adjustable for both bump and rebound?

I know some of the older KONI were only adjustable for the stroke in one direction and I can't remember which way. Bump or rebound.

Andrew

[Sportscar Nut]

Can't comment on King springs stiffness versus original but also have a new set in the box but never fitted! The original TiQV's set up is very compliant but soft with lots of travel compared to modern day cars. The springs were unique to the TiQV which also meant a unique rear brake proportioning valve had to be fitted.

My preference is Koni Sport as found reds too soft and also had the rebound stiffened by 20% making the car so stable through fast cornering on rough roads. As Ricky suggested, would look to replace all bushes as they are pretty cheap.

Ultimately is your preference but if you find the King springs too stiff, the original springs work a treat with Konis.

Cheers
Paul

[colcol]

We had a club member a few years ago, who fitted Nolathane type bushes to his track / roadcar Sud, and at Phillip Island the front suspension collapsed in the pits, and that was caused by the too stiff bushes not allowing any movement and causing the front suspension pickup points to fail, very lucky it didn't happen on the track.
The Sud and 33 front suspension is almost Lotus like in its handling and lightness, too stiffer components will transfer forces to places they were not designed to take, Colin.

[DAMO1A]

I recently bought a 1983 Alfasud TI QV

Hi Andrew

Congratulations on your purchase and welcome to the 900 Series family.  Great to see another Twin Carb Sud in Sydney.  Any details or photos of your new acquisition? 

Damian

[amichie]

I have had a good look over the rear bushes and they are original rubber design and seem to be OK. No real sign of splitting or perishing. The main noise I had was the poor fit of the rear King spring in the lower seat that would make a horrible crashing sound every now and again. I slipped a piece of rubber hose around the bottom turn of the coil and now that noise is gone. As soon as i get some suitable springs for the front I will pull the front apart and go over the bushes etc.

I bought some rubber bushes from ALFA-SERVICE online and they seem to have a Steel centre pin with a rubber bush and a fiberglass outer sleeve. Never seen that before, usually the outer is also a steel sleeve.

I presume these are just press in/out bushes but do you have to put these in with lock-tite?

I guess I should start a separate thread for pics of the car. I will do that later. BTW I love driving it even though its got a few too many bumps and rattles at the moment.

i put the original steering wheel back on yesterday as the previous owner had fitted a thin rim wood wheel (Nardi style) and that had also made the steering a little easier wth the original back on. I guess I really would like the car to be  as original as possible and if I can get the stock springs back in then the only other non standard thing is the 2 inch exhaust.

[colcol]

The suspension bushes that are genuine have a steel sleeve in the centre, a rubber centre and a plastic - nylon outer sleeve that is bigger than where it goes in to the suspension arm, so to get it to go in, you put a big hose clamp around it, to compress it so that you can press it into the arm, you put the hose clamp around the bush and leave one end poking out about 5 - 10 mm, and feed that in to the arm, put rubber grease onto the bush and suspension arm, loctite is not required.
The suspension bushes for the front suspension on a Sud are interchangeable with a 33, i know as i have done it, Colin.

[amichie]

Thanks Colcol. Looking forward to getting this all done and then take it for a spin on some suitable twisty roads.

[colcol]

Because Suds and 33's are so light, they don't tend to wear out suspension parts, unlike 147's and 156's that require new rubbers every 100,000 klms or so, due to the extra bulk, Colin.

[amichie]

The car had one owner for the first 27 years and he kept an amazing log of service and parts and it never had any mention of rear bushes. It does show new ball joints a few years back plus a receipt for rebuilding the Konis.

[colcol]

The rear bushes will perish before they wear out, the ball joints are riveted in by the factory and to replace them, you drill the rivets out and the replacement balljoints are bolted in, check for any rust around the suspension arms where the balljoints attach, a problem area, Colin.