156 2.0 JTS worn cam lobes after 60000ks

[smitti52]

Has anyone experienced worn cam lobes after 60000K. Car is a 2.0JTS. Previous owner neglected regular oil changes.

I have been told that the main problem is that the cams don't sit in a bath of oil when the engine is turned off as the with V6 cams.
So the damage is done at start up when the cams are dry for about 10seconds till oil is pumped up to cover them.
My mechanic has suggested an Lucas brand additive that will help oil bond to the camshafts.

Any further suggestions, would be grateful.

[alanm]

I will never forget going to a well known Alfa specialist to pick their brains before I bought a 156.
When the subject of the conversation turned to the JTS he showed me a whole shelf full of camshafts with some VERY worn lobes.
No doubt the result of poor maintenance. What was odd was the apparent ramdomness of the wear, on lobe ok the one right next to it HALF worn away!!!

Alan

[wankski]

yes this is common, and a good topic for discussion.

it is clear that lubrication is an issue, but higher quality materials and hardening can help... the randomness of lobe wear can be explained by the oil passages if one is blocked... altho cyl one seems to be more an issue than others (tho 3cyl has happened, others could too)... at least you have some chance of spotting cly1 with a good led torch and small wand mirror

inspecting oil is also obvious, but that doesn't mean it hasn;t run dry at some point before inspection.

personally, just my preference, I always perfer flow to any other characteristic in an oil, and for a 2.0 JTS i would still presist with 10w-40 myself.

THIS IS JUST AN OPINION OF WHAT I WOULD USE. ALFA SPEC IS 10w-60 FOR THE 2.0 JTS. IF IN DOUBT, REFER TO MANUFACTURER SPEC

the reason for my view is as far as i can see the blocks b/w the TS and JTS is common as is the oil pump. Nothing that would make a difference IMHO has changed, but alfa spec'd 10w-40 for the TS and a much thicker 10w-60.

10w-60 is much thicker than 10w-40, yes even its cold start viscosity is thicker!

I personally think alfa changed to the heavier spec to appease new car buyers as the TS was slammed for oil consumption, and blowing smoke with relatively low km engines... the ring tolerances on the jts pistons, which are different, may be even looser.

IMO if your jts can get away with 10w-40 (i.e. doesn't smoke and not excessive consumption), i'd use that and keep up with maintenance far ahead of schedule. Much worse than 'wrong' oil viscosity is definately lack of oil, and these engines definately use it.

An additional factor is fuel contamination which seems to be worse with the direct injection jts.

This bunch of factors leads me to hyperactive oil changes and always keeping it topped up on the higher side of max.

Definately a biatch... with a kaput camshaft i'd also worry about the bearings, especially the big ends... If you do go the route of changing teh cam shaft (inlet?) buy a new variator too. Change the entire belt kit and you might as well fit a new water pump (grab a metal impellor version if you can)... Personally i would swap out the big ends at least - it's cheap insurance if its done now...

[John Hanslow]

A well known club sponsor and Alfa Specialist does prefer to recommend the twin spark equiped vehicles due to issues with oil starvation on the jts engine.

[Davidm1600]

Its funny how this transpires, since in my case my Mechanic (an Alfa specialist) recommended against the twin spark and spoke highly of the JTS.  His advice to me was to find the best example I could (that being one which had always been serviced by Alfa specialists), with the lowest Kms, the newest example I could find (at the time - that being 3 years ago) and for the best price I could manage.

My '03 JTS sportwagon fitted the bill exactly, as per his instructions, it now has 107,400km on the clock and goes superbly, and no dramas at all with worn cam lobes. 

In my experience I think the point is if you buy a car which has not been maintained appropriately you run the risk of problems.  Equally true is the opposite, as I think I have with mine.  Mine hardly uses any oil at all, but I do regularly check and if at all a little low always keep toped up. 

[wankski]

meh, TS, JTS very nearly the same engine...

now arese v6 vs the 4 bangers is a different story... 

[davidatntl]

Well, this happened to me last year with my 156 TS and I did some research to find what might be going on.
I didn't know I had a problem until I decided to do the headgasket, and whilst I was pulling down the engine, imagine the surprise at finding a full 5mm missing from many lobes.  My repair method was to search for the best secondhand cams I could find, get some extra lifters for the ones that were a bit suspect and proceed with job (including belts and variator of course).

Unlike you guys, I was running Mobil1, which is what I have used almost exclusively in my Alfa75 TS (differnt engine to the 156TS).  That engine has been abused at the track for 20 years and has no issues.
The oil ALFA recommends for the 156 TS and JTS is actually their Selenia Racing (10W-60), which has an additional additive (a Four Letter Acronym I can't remember).  They haven't always recommended this oil for both 156's, there was a change early in the car's life, and you can trace this backthrough their dealer releases. 
I have decided to use Castrol Edge 10W-60 in all my cars now, and have not had any further issues.

Unless you take the tappet cover off you wouldn't know you had a problem.

Cheers
david

[John Hanslow]

I suppose then that the rule would be that good oil has to be used - usually supplied buy an Alfa Specialist. 

You have to get the car serviced by someone who knows the brand and the nature of then engines..

[davidatntl]

John,
We won't know whether it HAS to be Selenia until some more failures occur.  I wish I knew more about the role of these additives that Europe are trying to reduce in oil. Whether these new oils (like Edge 10W-60 work in specific cases seems unclear.  If you check all the oil company websites, very few specifiy ANY oil for the TS and Arese engines.  It seems strange that all the complaints seem to be on the 2.0L TS and JTS engines.  I see you also have an Arese V6 engined car...these don't seem to suffer from premature lobe wear, not have I found particluarly bad examples in the original TS series (as used in in ALFA75).
Lets hope that we have the solution.

Cheers, david

[colcol]

Recently i had the cam cover off my 156 JTS and was a bit nervous as to what i would see, the cams lobes were fine, which makes me think that lobe wear problems are caused by oil starvation by running the oil level too low or skipped oil changes with dirty oil and sludge clogging up the oil holes for correct lubrication and the incorrect oil viscosity being used that is too thick to be pumped to the top of the engine on startup, i change my oil every 6 months or 6000 ks, the oil being the cheapest thing i will ever put in the engine!

[John Hanslow]

The dealers and Alfa Specialists have advised the problem of not using the correct speck oil is that the cams wear out.  For the occasional long distance drive I have purchased a litre of the best oil for potential top ups.

Some people change oil frequently (me for sure 5,000kms) but an issue is cheap below spec oil used and infrequent service.  Twin Spark or otherwise, if the oil level is not checked and only serviced every 20,000 kms, then if the oil level is low the engine is damaged.

Opinions vary but the latest feeling (opinions I have hears from several sources) about the JTS is that the Twin Spark is a better motor and less problematic.  I was surprised to hear it.  The JTS is a newer car so you sort of assume the technology is better and more reliable.

So question, if the JTS engine was so good, why was it only available for a few years and then discontinued with the 159 - and not available at all on the 147 ?

[colcol]

Re worn cams, i am bias here because i have a 156 JTS, when i said use the correct oil, i meant the correct viscosity, Alfa recomends 10-60, if you use say the more common 20-50 then it will be thicker at startup and then it wil take longer for the oil to reach the camshafts, the 10 rating being very thin almost like kerosene when the oil is cold, the 60 rating is what the oil thickness is when the engine is hot, i have used the highly touted Mobil 1, but the viscosity is not quite right for the JTS, it is 5-50 and i found that it used slightly more oil due to the fact i think it was thinning out at high temperatures, i currently use Castrol Edge 10-60 because it is the correct viscosity, an engine builder told me years before i got my JTS, what good oil Castrol Edge is, but i do not know enough about oils as i am not a Scientist, another feature of oil should have is called 'cling' that is the ability to coat to the metal and not drain off over night, so the metal parts do not have a dry start, this why this is why another man recommended good old fashion mineral oil with good 'cling' characteristics, another thing not touched on is the oil filter on a JTS the ones i have seen are much smaller than a filter on a twin spark, due to less room around the exhaust on a JTS, they may clogg up quicker and not filter the dirt out of the oil, there are several brands on the market, i use Daiken brand sold by Westfill, because they are 30% bigger than the more commonly available ones, the downside is they are even more difficult to change due a bigger filter going into a smaller space, Colin.

[colcol]

   Re discontinue of JTS engine, the JTS engine in the 156 was used between 2002-2006, it offered 11 more kilowatts, 10% more torque at lower revs and better fuel economy than a twin spark, the down side of this engine is that it was more expensive to build than a twin spark due to the direct injection and more electronics, the JTS motor was not used in the sister Fiat cars but was used in the upmarket Lancia Lybra, but according to  a spare parts catalogue the JTS was used in 147's oversea's, but i have never seen one in Australia, but i do not know everything, they may have made their way to Australia!.
   The reason why the Alfa Romeo\ Fiat motors did not get used in the 159 series is because our parent company Fiat were in a bad way and General Motors took a stake in them as a roundabout way of getting into the Italian market, the 159 was approx 15% heavier than a 156 and needed a bigger motor, supplied by General Motors a 2.2 litre Family 2 supplied by  i believe Opel and Pontiac and the 159 v-6 blocks were supplied by Holden in Australia, this arrangement injected some much neede cash to Fiat to develope new models and allowed General Motors to build more volume, Colin.

[wankski]

NO OIL gets 'thicker' as it gets warmer... and the ratings aren't precise values. Simply when cold (0C) the 10w-60 will 'flow like' a single grade 10w oil, and at full operating temp (90-100C) it flows like a signle grade 60w oil.. hence "multi-grade".

all oils get thinner at higher temps as the molecules excite and disperse.

- why the 'flow' analysis? because that's how oil actually works... there are no ball bearings on your crank shaft or conrods, they are simply flat pieces of half-circle metal - that is how the lubrication works - by inducing a fluid induced suspension of the running gear, that actually floats on the high pressure flow of oil ("hydrodynamic lubrication"). This stuff about 'cling' and all that is largely marketing BS.... The viscosity of oil is important as that is what determines flow.

This is why in most cases in normal driving you'll be better off on the thinner 'cold rating' alternative, but only a proper engine bench test will determine which oil flows best at optimal pressure for a particular engine at a fixed rpm.

also if you believe the power figures alfa gave for the 2.0 jts, get set to be disappointed on a dyno. I've never seen one make substantially more power than a TS.

[colcol]

Re power outputs, my 156 JTS put out a dissapointing 100 h.p. at a Dyno day, i was dissapointed until i got in the car and all the dash lights were flashing, i then worked it out that the electronic nanny had cut power to the engine because the front wheels were spinning at a million miles an hour and the back wheels were stopped, how you would disable it is i do not know!, as it is all linked with the traction and stability control and the ABS, the JTS engine has FOUR Lambda sensors, and one of them are a bit off their best, you lose a bit of power, luckily as i drove home all the sensors reset themselves and all the dash lights went out.