147 GTA Problem: Motor Control System Failure

[155 lover]

Hi All - just looking for some advice on a recent problem I have with my 2003 147 GTA. First a brief history of the vehicle.

History: I am the second owner. It is a 2003 147 GTA with 43,000kms on it and in exceptional condition with a full and thorough service history from Rick Damelians, including having the alternator replaced under warranty and the water pump done with the timing belt. Since buying the car in March I've done about 2,000kms and installed the new Q2 diff (can't speak highly enough of it) and a new clutch, as well as having a good service with all my fluids changed etc. The car drives fantastic and apart from a stiff suspension on crap roads (which i expected) I can't fault it

Problem: Unfortunately I have had my first Alfa "hiccup." I was driving down the freeway late one night and I got a "Motor Control System Failure" messge on my dashboard. Everything was working fine at the time. I pulled over and basically the book says it could be a number of things, but that if it was "glowing" and not "flashing" I could continue to drive, but get it to a mechanic ASAP.

Anyway I got it home and upon closer inspection, my temperature gauge on the dashboard now constantly reads zero and the engine fan is constantly running at a beserk speed (sounds like a jet plane). I also noticed that the radiator fluid is below the minimum mark, which I thought was strange that its a been depleted since I've only done a little over 1,000kms since I had it serviced and have no obvious leaking under the engine bay or in the engine bay. The car is not running rough since the issue and does not seem to be using too much fuel, although I haven't driven it much to avoid aggravating anything.

I've done a bit of reading and the only things on the net that I can find are:

- Thermostat is broken, causing the temp gauge to read zero and the fan to come on as a fail safe.
- Catalytic converter (or something emissions related)
- Head Gasket issue (I think it unlikely given it's only done 43,000kms and I have no milky residue near the oil filler cap/exhaust smoke)
- The radiator has an issue (I read these wear quite quickly on the GTA?)
- I've got a separate radiator hose leak somewhere
- The Battery is old and low on power and is causing the ECU to go haywire (my last 147 and 156 both had what I would call - "fragile" ECUs).

Anyway it's booked in to get checked later in the week, but some advice would be great, as I'd like to know if its anything common so I can point the mechanic in the right direction before they get started, or so i know if they try and rip me off - i.e. if it's just the thermostat, it should be quite cheap.

Anyway thanks to anyone that responds with any ideas or quick checks I can do.

[Brad M]

This happened to my 04 GTA just over a week ago.

It had been serviced 2 weeks prior so found it difficult to blame a lack of attention.

Situation was I parked it up at the airport on Friday night, came back just over 2 days later. Started fine then as I was putting the ticket in the machine to leave the long term car park the error came up.

Drove home with no water temp registering, parked it up and told the missus to take the 05 to work the next day. I started the 04 the next day and there was no issue and hasn't been one since.

In another thread it was suggested a few of the computer issues can be avoided, if you let the start checks complete, before actually starting the car. I've been trying to be more diligent ... but it is a bad habit to just start it so I can hear it idle.  

[155 lover]

Thanks Brad - I was hoping that mine would go away too and I could just put it down to fragile electronics or something. Unfortunately my problem persists. It's been 3 days and as soon as I turn on to accessories the engine fan runs at full throttle and the warning pops up. The temperature gauge still reads blank, even if I start the car and let it run.

[shiny_car]

- Thermostat is broken, causing the temp gauge to read zero and the fan to come on as a fail safe.

Thermostat or coolant temp sensor? I presume the latter. I've never had to locate the sensor, but you should first check it hasn't become unplugged.

Your error is no doubt related to the sensor, and the fan. If you can access the temp sensor, then there's probably a way to check that it's functional, say using a multimeter; you'd want to check a copy of the workshop manual about how to test it. If it's failed, and you're handy, it shouldn't be hard to replace, unless it's in an awkward position. You'll lose a bit of coolant, but work quickly and have some rags to catch it, and you should be right (top up any loss with distilled water). I presume it's in the housing between the water pump and thermostat, which means it's on the driver side at the level of the base of the 'V' of the cylinder banks.

If you're not into DIY, then a trip to your Alfa mechanic is in order. They can hook up the Examiner computer to confirm the MSCF error relates to the sensor or whatever, and go from there.

And if you are in no rush, and want to save money, you can buy the part (if required) yourself, either on ebay or any of the parts suppliers (eg: EB Spares, UK; Arese Spares, Sydney; AlfaWorshop, UK). For example, if it's the sensor: http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/parts/GT_Sending_unit.shtml Possibly A$40-50 delivered, and half the cost from a dealer.

Having said this, I think it's uncommon for the sensor to fail. So it may just be a loose/corroded plug.

[155 lover]

I've got another error now and I'm pretty concerned. I went to take it to the mechanic today and I have no clutch pedal pressure and it won't go into gear. I've just put a brand new clutch in only 1000 kms ago so I'm at a bit of a loss to explain what's going on unless the installation was screwed up.

Only thing I can think of is the clutch master cylinder, but it seems odd that this would choose to fail now, especially as it's only done 43, 000 kms. Also I would have thought this would have beeen done when the new clutch went in, unless it's external from the clutch?

This is driving me nuts. I know alfas are sensitive, but the cars only done 43, 000 kms. My 79 alfetta with 150, 000kms is more robust than this!

[shiny_car]

Master/slave cylinders are separate, and not part of a routine clutch replacement.

It does seem odd, because the clutch is not 'electrical' obviously. Hard to tie it together.

I presume - but let's not presume too much! - that the 'pin' that connects the clutch pedal to the master cylinder piston/rod has not broken? This was a recall from years ago, due to a weak clip that holds the pin. If it breaks, then you lose clutch function. Perhaps have a look under the dash at the pedal and mechanism. It's the only thing I can think of that's 'simple' (as opposed to a leak in the system). It's still unrelated to the temperature issue AFAIK.

[155 lover]

Thanks. My guess is the clutch slave cylinder, because if I pump the clutch 9 or 10 times, I can get it to go into gear. With regards to the recall on the pin connecting the clutch to the slave cylinder, was that on the 147 GTA too? I can't find any mention of a recall on the associated government product recall website for my model.

[155 lover]

Oh well, the car got towed to the mechanics today, so I'll post when I hear back as to what the problems are for others reference. I managed to reverse it out of the garage and turn it arround by furiously pumping the clutch to build pressure and get it into gear.

Either way, I'm massively frustrated and disappointed by the whole affair. With only 43,000kms, a full service history (it's been serviced around 12 times, that's once every 3,500kms to put that in perspective!), and good money spent on upgrades to improve durability and performance with the Q2, I suppose I expected more from the car in terms of reliability.

I know my faults *may* end up being relatively cheap and easy, but I can't help but think that a $60-$70,000 Alfa (when brand new) shouldn't have these crappy faults after 7-8 years (I know that's a fair period of time) but only 43,000kms.

Either way I still love the car and have had experiences with my older Alfas, but it is no surprise that despite their fantastic looks and driveability the new models are struggling in terms of sales if these problems are common (from what I'm reading).

I'll update this post when I know more for the benefit of other 147 GTA owners.

[wankski]

please update, i know its annoying, but it could be something really simple...

i had all sorts of VDC/ABS errors until the earth strap to the engine was reconnected - all issues solved...

clutch is probably just a slave, which with time, is no indictment on the car or make...

tough it out, it's a great car! hope its a cheap and easy fix!

let us know!

joe

[155 lover]

Thanks for the support.

Ok - My mechanic has gone through the car and found:
- With regards to the clutch: both the clutch Master and Slave cylinders are worn out. The Master cylinder completely gone and the Slave cylinder apparently just hanging in there, so I'm replacing both.
- With regards to the motor control system failure error, the computer found two fault codes: - 1. Rear brake switch fault and 2. Coolant temperature reading problem. He investigated both, found nothing, reset the fault codes and everything is apparently running fine - temp gauge back on, fan cutting in appropriately etc.
- With regards to my radiator coolant level being low again after 1000kms since flushing and replacing, he can't find any leaks at all, and thinks it's most likely an "air lock" (no idea what that means exactly), but it's probably something I'll have to monitor.

I also asked him to check the alternator and battery as I've read that an old battery can make your ECU go haywire. The alternator is fine (it was replaced under warranty) and the battery is also ok, although it appears slightly dated, so for $150 odd I'll probably just replace it, at least I can rule that out of being the cause if it happens again.

Either way, I'm glad the problems are relatively "minor" given the nasty sound of "motor control system failure" - but seriously what good is having a computer to give you warning lights about engine problems if they daignose problems that don't exist or can't be located, and worse - don't diagnose them when they actually happen (i.e. I got no warning for the clutch master/slave cylinders, purely felt it).

I actually prefer the way my alfetta and spider work - when something breaks, I find out the old fashioned way, when it just doesn't work, as opposed to living in fear of nasty sounding warning lights from a computer that could be terrible and expensive or cheap, annoying and nothing, but still requires a trip to the mechanic to clear the computer.

[shiny_car]

Geez, sorry to hear about the master/slave cylinders. Odd.

With regards to the recall on the pin connecting the clutch to the slave cylinder, was that on the 147 GTA too? I can't find any mention of a recall on the associated government product recall website for my model.

I presume it includes the GTA, but owners should have received a letter at the time, stating the recall, to arrange the fix.
http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/apps/recalls/searches/expand.asp?uniqueID=BE178B3E065C101D802571E6004151E8&freeText=Blank&tx=

Irrelevant to you now, anyway.

[colcol]

It could be worse, if it was a JTS, the gearbox would have to come out as they have an internal slave cylinder, i would say yours slave cylinder is located on outside of the gearbox, but did you know that every time you bleed the brakes you should bleed the cluch system as well, as the fluid is hydroscopic, which means it absorbs moisture, and water is a bad lubricant, therefor the rapid wear of your clutch system, and while we are at it, you really should change it every 2 years, or when the moisture content is too high, some service centres have a electronic gizmo that you put its sensor into the master cylinder, and it reads how much moisture is in the fluid, and they really work well, as i have one, they are about $150 new or cheaper second hand, as mine was, so you only fling the brake fluid when you need, also change the power steering fluid every few years, such as when it gets dirty, or goes a 'milky' colour which is aluminium particles, see various internet car servicing sites for details, and some Beemers that i know off have a filter in the power steering reservoir, and to renew the filter, you renew the reservoir!, the one i seen was the same as in Alfa Romeo Milano's, 90's spiders, 16 valve 33's and 164's, but the reservoirs were about $40 on ebay, Colin.

[wankski]

correct col, v6s and selespeed have external slaves.... no biggie.....

[155 lover]

Thanks guys. Got the car back - drives great, although the clutch feels different compared to before the clutch slave and master cylinders gave up - it feels smoother, but not as firm as before.

Also, from what I read about the placement of the clutch slave and master cylinders being external and all, as well as some posts in here about it not being a big job, how much could I expect to pay? I've got the bill here and I'm slightly gob-smacked. I won't give it away because I don't want to pre-empt what anyone else would expect.

Ignoring the fact that I could get cheap parts from the UK, how many hours labour and how much would the two parts cost me? I'd be interested to know what people on here would expect considering all the comments I had (even from the mechanic initially) was that it would be an easy job.

[wankski]

i myself was referring to the slave as being not a big deal... MC is harder... its unusual for both to go, and is usually SC over MC...

it's hard to say what the local mech pricing is... the v6 slave is around 30 quid from o/s... typically aus pricing is at least 2-2.5x this... carrying over to master.. 50 quid...

so that's around $160-210 on parts alone... depending on how willing they are to pass on trade discount... but most non-dealers get screwed on oem parts here...

labour... i'm not too sure about the 147 but teh MC can be difficult... sometimes u need to remove some of the pedals to get access, and i think some of the hard line needs to be removed from the engine bay.. maybe 2-4 hrs for MC alone.... but a sympathetic mech may give the SC labour free....

at least $200 in labour alone, to I would say a fixed ceiling for this kind of work being $400, even if difficult...

but I tend to low ball it... compared to what local indy mechs want!

so, i would guess anywhere from $400-$700. U'd be amazing how pricing varies from mech to mech... I wont say what for, and who, but from a DEALER i was charged $400 labour, and they did so, impeccably... cf quote from a well known 'alfa specialist' who wanted.... $900.

true story.


I go to the dealer for big ticket items i wont do myself.