Engine Origins/Identity

[Gotta B Red]

Hi All,
New to the forum and neither an owner or a member YET.
I'm hoping for a definitive answer regarding when the last "All Alfa" 3.2L V6 (not the engine built from the GM 'Short Motor') may have fitted in a GT and mores the point imported to Oz.
Could the engine number or perhaps a prefix or suffix code as a part thereof reveal the engines true identity?
Better still, is there an easy (read as vivsible) way to differentiate these two engines.
I've read the 'shiny' induction tubes are a distinguishing feature but I'm unconvinced this is a reliable indicator, as my understanding is the GM short motor has 'All Alfa' peripherals so it seems feasible to me that these 'shiny' induction tubes atop the motor could easily be common to both variants.
I've also read that a surplus 5000 engine units were produced prior to the cessation of production of the "Busso Designed" engine at the Arese plant and that these engines were earmarked for certain models within the Fiat Group, The Alfa GT being one.
I'd be very grateful of any advice and info from all that may put this question to bed for me.
Thanks to all respondants.

[aggie57]

Welcome to our forum....

The answer is pretty simple - GT's only ever had true Alfa V6 engines fitted.  The GM sourced engines can be found in 159's and variants (Brera, Spider) but not in the GT's. 

A GT is in reality a stretched and rebodied 147.

[Gotta B Red]

Thanks for the Welcome and the info.
It was what I suspected but I had nothing more to go on than what I could read 'between the lines'
Can I take it as gospel that this is the case regardless of year model?
Cheers,
Andy

[aggie57]

No problem Andy. I believe you can.

[pasey25]

it is interesting that i often hear that the GM-based alfa engine is only a GM short motor and has 'alfa' ancillaries.

thats not really true. the engine is shipped as a finished product from the plant in pt melbourne. Alfa approves all changes and has engineering input (like any customer of an engine) but the engine is and was engineered (as well as assembled) by GM.

[L4OMEO]

Yeah, beg to differ there pasey25. The original engine, coded HFV6, was engineered in partnership between Holden and GM in the States (actually the Cadillac division, I think) and has been used by them and several other subsidiaries and partners including Alfa, Saab, Daewoo, Vauxhall, even Suzuki, in a range of capacities and using both natural and forced induction. Some of these have been moderate developments of the base engine done by Holden to customer specs, others - including Alfas - have been extensively re-engineered by the recipient company. In an interview at the time, Alfa's Head Of Engineering described the original HFV6 as 'an inanimate lump of metal' and the Alfa version shares little with any of the other derivatives (intake system, heads, exhaust, ancilliaries, are all unique and definitely Alfa-engineered).

As far as the manufacturing goes, there are several stories about exactly how much is done by Holden. According to Wikipedia (for what that's worth) only the base Alfa engine is completed in Melbourne, and Alfa does all final assembly including heads and ancilliaries. I've read similar reports in industry publications and tend to believe this. Interestingly, in another article it's claimed that the blocks are all actually cast in the Mexico plant (one of 4 or 5 globally that produce the HFV6) and shipped to Melbourne for assembly.

Regardless, Alfa's version has little commonality with what you'll find under a Commodore bonnet. Whether it's better than the Busso masterpiece it replaced is a whole other story 

Rory

[pasey25]

Hi Rory

lets just say mine is first hand information.

a little more reliable than PR interviews and wikipedia articles.

there's no doubt of course that the alfa variant is substantially different to that in the commodore, but thats not what we were talking about. We were talking about the engineering and manufacturing of the alfa variant.

BTW when you say that the HFV6 was engineered in partnership between holden and GM (cadillac), you talk like Holden is not part of GM.

the responsible organisation is GM Powertrain. It is a global organisation. For interest sake the HFV6 was originally developed for GM by Riccardo engineering.

[L4OMEO]

Ahh, ditto to the first-hand information, I was simply making reference to publicly available sources.

I fully understand what we're talking about, so forgetting about assembly and the other points I raised as an aside, I stand by my statement that Alfa's variant of this engine was substantially engineered by Alfa, not Holden. Any Holden-sourced claim to the contrary is simply untrue.

No, I definitely was not suggesting Holden was not part of GM, sorry if I gave that impression.

We may need to agree to disagree over this I think!

Cheers mate,
Rory

[Gotta B Red]

Thanks Everyone, I didn't mean to raise anyones dander re the term 'short motor'.
The implication was based partly on an assumption that if the heads,valve train and pumps and anything else that bolts or attaches to the block,for that matter, save possibly the sump pan were not going to be used but replaced with Alfa parts. Then why pay for the freight?
So they can return to sender for a credit perhaps ..... just kidding. Smelted into billet and recast into something else to suit the groups needs would be my guess.
Secondly, it was what I remembered to be the definition of a 'short motor' and very plausible /feasible to ship the motor that way if the components were not going to be used. I believe in modern parlance "cost effective" could be the term.
If Alfa are re-working the original components then it's a completely different story, but that is not my understanding nonetheless I'm happy to defer to the illuminati.
My query was answered fully and I'm very grateful,I've always loved Alfa's, since a small boy,and now I'm contemplating buying one I want it to be the 'Full Monty'. No offence to GM or Chyrsler at all, I just want my first Alfa to be that and nothing more all Alfa, not an amalgum of one makers engine and the others style,presence and aplomb.
As for the GM products origins I was of the understanding it began life as a bent 8 Oldsmobile (small-block) and they gas-axed off two cylinders (after a fashion) But then again GM are also a large stable of marques so who know's whose up who and whose not payin'
Perhaps the product in question is a completely new design.

Cheers,
Andy

[aggie57]

Hi Andy,

In that case yes, you really can't buy something later than a GT and that must be fitted with a V6 and not a 4-cylinder engine.  Mind you, that chassis comes from Fiat originally so.....

The last of the "completely made by Alfa" models sold here was the Alfetta based series of cars, including the 75 and 90.  Nothing but Alfa in them as far as I can recall, least the ones we got in Australia.

[L4OMEO]

Thanks Everyone, I didn't mean to raise anyones dander re the term 'short motor'

Hi Andy

Don't sweat it. Alfas tend to attract people who are passionate about cars and subsequently the dialogue can reflect this. Doesn't mean pasey25 and I have any less respect for each other just because we have differing views, quite the opposite in fact. If we wanted peace and harmony we'd join the Prius Owner's Club forum and quietly bore ourselves to death.

And aggie57 is quite right regarding the last of the 'true' pre-Fiat era Alfas. If you want something that's not a 'Mudblood' (Google 'Harry Potter' if this makes no sense  ) then that's where you need to be looking. Rather than using this as the sole demarcation though, I'd suggest you try models either side of this point and decide what appeals to you personally. IMO the Alfa DNA is definitely there in some of the newer era cars; almost absent in others. Up to you to decide what you like, but one thing's for sure - ask for opinions here and you can expect some diverse and forthright answers on the subject 

Best of luck

Rory

[Gotta B Red]

Hi Rory,
Thanks for the comments and a chuckle re the Prius Owners Club and it's refreshing to hear there aren't many shrinking violets on this forum,save perhaps myself as I believe it's time for me to eat a slice (at least) of humble pie.
Homage where it's due, pasey25 is on the money and my reference to the GM V6 being an Olds' with two cylinders sliced off is not that accurate although not totally inaccurate either. The earliest incarnation may have been a 'sliced' Buick,can't help myself here "from a Buick 8" ...... close but no cigar! and Aplogies to Mrs Zimmerman's little boy.

It was from a different era completely and ohv and certainly not an OHC or DOHC.
But to extend the genetic diversity theory a little it seems the engine once used by Alfa and made here at Fishermen's Bend may well, or does have noticeable genetic traits of European Design and has indeed borrowed from an engine that in it's first born guise possessed many european attributes and hardly any nth american traits whatsoever. My only concession here would be it's capacity @350 c.i.  Features unseen in American production engines such as .....

All alloy construction Heads and Block (Rambler [the now defunct American motors] may have tried this and could be a possible exception)
Quad Cam (DOHC)
Vernier Gear Timing (usually the domain of european exotica)Chain and then toothed belts in the latter versions
Four Valve Assembly (FVA)
Dual Fuel Injection Systems (Throttle Body and Direct) 16 inlet ports with the drivers ability to shut down half of these along with the 'direct' portion of the fuel injection system when not required.I'm guessing here but I suspect as some countermeasure to a "Ferris Bueller" type situation.
All neatly mated/matched to a Semi-Auto 6 speed tranny from ZF in Germany
Loosely the design brief/directive from GM to one of it's then subsidaries (I've roughly converted the US imperial to metric)
Must be 5.735 litres
Must propel 1500kg load to 300km/hr in 400m
In other words able to match or beat a Testarossa in a straight line (forget about the corners).
For the time, almost 25 years back, this engine was way ahead of it's time in American terms and whilst some if not all features were, in Italy, de rigueur and commonplace. In the US, hitherto, unheard of in a production engine for the general publics consumption.
So the antecedents of the GM engine that found it's way into some Alfas was not necessarily as American as one might think and in fact many of the General's current day products (engines) may well owe a good deal to this particular engine and it's distinctly european genome.

Cheers,
Andy